Ski jump in my MIM Fender?

[SeismicAssault]

I've been working on the setup of my MIM Fender (2006, I believe) with a 9.5" radius neck. I'm having some real problems with fret buzz / completely unsounding frets on the upper frets of the E, A, and D strings. I think I may have what is referred to as "Ski Jump", and I'm wondering what I can do about it.

I've taken all my measurements meticulously, so they're pretty accurate. I've been using Fender's setup guide, so most of the measurements are to their specs.

Here's my setup so far:

The neck relief on the E string with the 1st fret capoed, and the last fret depressed, measured at the 8th fret is .015".

The string height measured at the 17th fret (open strings, no capo), is E: 5/64", A: 5/64", D: 5/64", G: 6/64".

I took down data on all the notes from the 12th fret up, and rated them from 1 to 5 on the sound, with 1 being "no buzz", 2 "some acceptable buzz", 3 "extreme buzz", 4 "note slight choked", 5 "completely choked, no sound". Here's the data on all the strings above the 12th fret:

fret E A D G
12 2 2 1 1
13 2 2 1 1
14 2 2 1 1
15 2 3 1 1
16 3 4 2 1
17 3 5 5 1
18 3 5 5 1
19 2 1 2 1
20 1 1 1 1

I don't know if this conveys what I'm seeing, but things get really ugly around the 16-18 frets, especially on the A and D strings. If I raise the A and D to about 7/64" at the 17th fret, it pretty much clears everything up, but I don't believe I should have to raise the action that high to get this to play well.

First, is this just a classic ski jump issue, or is there something else wrong (like the truss rod pushing the fretboard up or something)?

Second, is this something I can fix, a repair person can fix, or do I just need to live with it?

Thanks for looking at all this data!

[whatshizname]

When I read the title, my first thought was someone literally doing a ski jump on a Fender. Thanks for the amusing thought haha

[PBass101]

I got the same thing on the maple neck of my MIA Precision, though not as bad as it sounds like you've got it. Maybe it has something to do with the truss rod, but I hear it is fairly common with Fenders. I won't be buying one again. Hopefully the Status Graphite replacement neck will be a little more stable.

[kai_ski]

My MIM deluxe Jazz V has the same problem. The Luthier who set it up put a shim under the neck to try and get the action down a little, but it really needs a fret level for it to play well. I was thinking about just replacing the neck -- possibly trying to find something lighter, but there isn't much out there. For now, I'm just going to live with it, or try and sell it as is.

[dmusic148]

Looks like ski jump to me. Get a short (6")straightedge, lay the edge on the frets at the 5th or so fret, and start sliding it up the neck. I think you'll find that the corner of the straightedge starts crashing into the frets as you go up, meaning (obviously) that those frets are too high.
It's repairable. You'll need a fret leveling most likely. Unfortunately it will cost you, between 100- 150 bucks I'd guess.
You could do it yourself, but you'll need some tools you probably don't have.

[John Herzog]

I would expect your E string to have the highest action but it's your G string and it seems to have the least amount of buzz. I've also heard the term you're refering to as Rising Fret board. I say take it to a pro since there could be a multitude of things that they may be able to do that you can't like fret leveling, neck shim, etc that may correct the problem.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by PBass101

I got the same thing on the maple neck of my MIA Precision, though not as bad as it sounds like you've got it. Maybe it has something to do with the truss rod, but I hear it is fairly common with Fenders. I won't be buying one again. Hopefully the Status Graphite replacement neck will be a little more stable.

My Status replacement neck needed a fret level right out of the box. It was actually quite bad at the upper frets. I hope yours is better.

[John Herzog]

Don't know where you are at, but if you're in the San Antonio area I have a guy I can recommend that won't charge an arm and a leg.

[SeismicAssault]

So it sounds like a setup is in order. I just wanted to make sure that my setup wasn't out of spec with what it should be able to do. The way I set it up was within the specs set by Fender as the "standard factory setup", so I guess I don't understand why I can't even set it up to factory specs.

Looks like ski jump to me. Get a short (6")straightedge, lay the edge on the frets at the 5th or so fret, and start sliding it up the neck. I think you'll find that the corner of the straightedge starts crashing into the frets as you go up, meaning (obviously) that those frets are too high.

I did take my 6" straight-edge ruler and ran it up and down the fretboard ... I found it did start to hit some of the upper frets, starting at about the 14th fret.

I can always just raise the strings up ... I don't mind playing with the strings higher, but I thought the tone suffered a lot. I don't know why it would sound that different with a higher setup.

[Metal Mitch]

open up the neck pocket and check for a factory shim. sounds like you might have the classic "postage stamp in between the neck bolts" type. factory stickers could also cause the neck to be shimmed unevenly.

a shim needs to be even across the entire width of the neck...

[SeismicAssault]

open up the neck pocket and check for a factory shim. sounds like you might have the classic "postage stamp in between the neck bolts" type. factory stickers could also cause the neck to be shimmed unevenly.

a shim needs to be even across the entire width of the neck...

Yeah, I was going to see if I could shim the neck ... at least give it a try. I believe I would need to either put a shim in between the screws nearest the headstock, or remove something (if there is a shim there) closer to the bridge side. My guess is that maybe a shim will fix most of this problem.

By the way, the reason the G string is higher is because I can't lower the bridge saddle anymore. This might be another good reason for a shim.

[PBass101]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

My Status replacement neck needed a fret level right out of the box. It was actually quite bad at the upper frets. I hope yours is better.

God, I hope so! I'm taking it to a shop in Chicago that's licensed for repair by Alembic, so I'll ask them to check for fret evenness as I'm sure they know how to take care of it.

[kai_ski]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

My Status replacement neck needed a fret level right out of the box. It was actually quite bad at the upper frets. I hope yours is better.

Did you buy your Status new?

[SeismicAssault]

The more I read about "action", I'm wondering if I've got my action just set way to low. I was reading the Sadowsky setup article, and they state a low action is: With the first fret capoed, and measured at the 12th fret, G string 1/16", and E string 3/32".

On the strings I'm having problems with, (E, A, and D), I've got the action set at 5/64" with no capo on the first fret and measured at the 17th fret. I'll check my measurements tonight, but I bet that with the capo and measured at the 12th fret, I might be at like 3/64" on the E, A, and D.

Does my setup just appear to be too aggressive (too low)? Does the Sadowsky definition of low action seem reasonable?

[narud]

Originally Posted by SeismicAssault

Does my setup just appear to be too aggressive (too low)? Does the Sadowsky definition of low action seem reasonable?

the setup you prefer is the setup you prefer. some can be setup out of the box the way you like and others need work. it doesnt mean that its too low. you just need to get work done on it. if the hump isnt too bad, you can have the frets leveled in that area to compensate. ive had other basses that needed the frets pulled and the board planed.

the guy who does my repair work called me a weenie one time because of the action i prefer. im not going to change my preferences because of it

[SeismicAssault]

Yeah, I agree with that 100% ... whatever action makes you happy is the "right" action.

But I guess I'm just questioning the factory setup that Fender publishes. The setup that they say comes from the factory is what Sadowsky would call ultra-ultra-low action. So does Fender really set it up that way? I am just trying to determine whether there's something defective with my MIM Fender (since I can't even get it to factory specs without major problems).

[lethargytartare]

Some thoughts:

Lots of people here on TB have posted their action measurements -- you can use that as a way to gauge whether your targets are too aggressive. StewMac also does, I think.

Yes on shimming the neck given the G saddle is bottomed out (IF you want that string's action lower).

Ramp up near the heel is not uncommon, but first also check that those frets are all seated nice and tight -- you'd hate to make a bunch of changes only to find that some frets had popped up a hair. How I'd go at it: try less relief, a little neck pitch, raise the saddles to get nice action (and match the fretboard radius) -- if the ramp-up is still interfering, then I think your choice is (a) adjust action until buzz is gone and cope with higher action, or (b) find a luthier to relevel (and crown) the frets to eliminate or minimize the ramp up.

As for why higher action affects tone -- higher action means the string length is slightly longer, so to get to the proper pitch the string will have to be slightly tighter...I could see those "slightly"s adding up to subtle changes in tonal characteristc. Consider also how playing an open string can be different from playing the same note fretted on a lower string...

Post your results -- good luck!

ltt

[Steveaux]

DO NOT put the shim between the screws.

This creates a fulcrum which will allow the neck to rock/wobble around its longitudinal axis. If you tighten the screws on one side more than the other, the neck will tilt to that side.

The shim must go all the way across the pocket, extending outside the screws.

Ideally, the shim will look like a tall, thin letter "E" with material on the outside and between the screws. This assures even support across the entire width of the heel.

[vejesse]

When you took your string height measurements did you hold the string down to the first fret? They use the capo to negate the height of the nut. Those Fender measurements will be too low if you don't use the capo or hold the string down at the first fret.

Also, adding a shim under the neck heel won't fix your frets at the rising tongue but getting rid of the shim might help. I get a kick out of so many people on this forum obsessing about neck shims when the real problem is frets that aren't level.

[lethargytartare]

+1 vejesse !!