"Speaking length" affect intonation?

[dbcandle]

As I understand it, the "speaking length" of the string is the portion of the string that REALLY vibrates. Depending on the flexibility of the string, and how it is mounted at the nut/bridge, this may be less than the nut-to-bridge measurment.

I've got a low B on an Ibanez that I can't intonate. I can't make the saddle far enough from the nut (fretted string is sharp). The action is pretty low (about 7/64ths), and the saddle position seems consistent with the other strings (forming pretty-much a diagonal).

The strings are LaBella Flats, medium (rather "chunky" strings). Could the way the string sits in the nut (too low or too tight) be affecting the "speaking length" of the string, thus affecting intonation?

[202dy]

If there is no more room to adjust the saddle the problem is at the nut. The string is not breaking at the bridge edge of the nut. The angle of the slot may too flat. But more likely is that there is a hump in the middle of the slot floor. That means that the scale length is determined by TDC of the hump. The scale is now longer than the original design. It is an easy repair if you have nut files. Or a tech can take care of it for a nominal charge.

[bassteban]

Maybe the bridge was mounted too close to the neck/nut to get the saddle back far enough to intonate properly. My Fender 5 has this issue, or nearly; the B saddle is as far back as it can go, & it's in tune. But there's no more room for adjustment.

[knuckle_head]

A lot of 5 string basses are sold with a 4 string bridge placement. If you feel up to it you can remove the bridge and move it back by as much as you have forward travel on your thinnest string - you could probably go back 3/8" or more.

We wouldn't think any less of you if you took it to someone...

[Jazzdogg]

Originally Posted by knuckle_head

A lot of 5 string basses are sold with a 4 string bridge placement. If you feel up to it you can remove the bridge and move it back by as much as you have forward travel on your thinnest string - you could probably go back 3/8" or more.

We wouldn't think any less of you if you took it to someone...

I recently bought a back-up 5 string and the bridge offered just barely enough adjustability to intonate properly; when I swapped the factory round-wounds for TI jazzflats, the intonation problem became worse and the bass remained out of tune until I repositioned the bridge.

Bridge design is driven as much by economics as anything, and most of the bridges I've seen have been a compromise between cost and performance.

Who makes the kinds of bridges that provide a separate piece of hardware for each string? Are they any good?

[202dy]

Originally Posted by bassteban

Maybe the bridge was mounted too close to the neck/nut to get the saddle back far enough to intonate properly. My Fender 5 has this issue, or nearly; the B saddle is as far back as it can go, & it's in tune. But there's no more room for adjustment.

Highly unlikely. Virtually every mass produced guitar is routed and bored on computer controlled machinery. The only way the bridge could be mounted out of place is for the operator to place the blank in the machine out of index. That is almost impossible to do with two hands and two eyes. And if, by some chance this were to occur, everything would be off, including the neck pocket, the control locations, and even the the contours of the body.

[dbcandle]

I checked the slot in the nut. There's no OBVIOUS problem with the slot, but I'm no expert.

My bridge intonated fine with other strings (rounds & TI Jazz Flats), but the La Bella Deep Talkin' B gives me trouble. The "taper" is one factor - it is the only tapered string I've ever had, and the only one in the set, that is tapered. Worse, the saddle is so far back that the "nice smooth wraps" of the tapered portion are not on the saddle. Instead, the messy windings close to the eyelet are what actually sit on the saddle. Yuck.

Once, I saw a picture of someone (also with a tapered string) who used a small piece of metal tubing so that the eyelet was held about 1/4" further from the bridge. This allowed the "nice smooth wraps" of the taper to sit on the saddle.

More recently, I almost bought a Yamaha 5-string that had a funny looking bridge; the B-string portion of the bridge was close to 1/4" further from the nut than the other 4 strings! Very much like that metal tubing "hack" I saw, but this bridge was designed to function this way!

Here's a link to the Yamaha, but you need to click on the picture of the bass to get a close-up: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...ass?sku=519167

[202dy]

Originally Posted by dbcandle

I checked the slot in the nut. There's no OBVIOUS problem with the slot, but I'm no expert.

My bridge intonated fine with other strings (rounds & TI Jazz Flats), but the La Bella Deep Talkin' B gives me trouble. The "taper" is one factor - it is the only tapered string I've ever had, and the only one in the set, that is tapered. Worse, the saddle is so far back that the "nice smooth wraps" of the tapered portion are not on the saddle. Instead, the messy windings close to the eyelet are what actually sit on the saddle. Yuck.

Once, I saw a picture of someone (also with a tapered string) who used a small piece of metal tubing so that the eyelet was held about 1/4" further from the bridge. This allowed the "nice smooth wraps" of the taper to sit on the saddle.

More recently, I almost bought a Yamaha 5-string that had a funny looking bridge; the B-string portion of the bridge was close to 1/4" further from the nut than the other 4 strings! Very much like that metal tubing "hack" I saw, but this bridge was designed to function this way!

Here's a link to the Yamaha, but you need to click on the picture of the bass to get a close-up: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...ass?sku=519167

It won't be OBVIOUS. Use a pencil to darken the slot. Move the tuner back and forth to see the wear mark. If the mark disappears in a uniform pattern then the slot floor is true. If the pencil mark is still showing on the bridge edge then there is a hump.

But you've probably answered your own question. The bass intonated before you changed the strings. Most likely the problem is the new string. Put the old one back on or change to a new string. The retailer should be willing to replace the new string.

[knuckle_head]

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

Who makes the kinds of bridges that provide a separate piece of hardware for each string? Are they any good?

ABM has been providing the bridges I have used - I understand they are hard to come by at present and there is an awful rumor that they aren't making any more.

ETS has an awesome single string bridge (I am a fan of their Tuning Fork bridges) - again they are hard to come by.

Hipshot has a bridge that is very similar to the ABM, except that they offer string through facility that will require routing in to the top of the bass.

Originally Posted by 202dy

Highly unlikely. Virtually every mass produced guitar is routed and bored on computer controlled machinery. The only way the bridge could be mounted out of place is for the operator to place the blank in the machine out of index. That is almost impossible to do with two hands and two eyes. And if, by some chance this were to occur, everything would be off, including the neck pocket, the control locations, and even the the contours of the body.

It is way more common than you might think - bridge placement has been a matter of formula and has been running on the standard set by Fender. Fender has very few 5 string offerings and bridge placement has remained in the 4 string position by and large.

The intonation difference between an E and B string can be as much as 1/4" depending on string choice, and the thicker or stiffer the string the more depth you'll need.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by knuckle_head

A


It is way more common than you might think - bridge placement has been a matter of formula and has been running on the standard set by Fender. Fender has very few 5 string offerings and bridge placement has remained in the 4 string position by and large.

The intonation difference between an E and B string can be as much as 1/4" depending on string choice, and the thicker or stiffer the string the more depth you'll need.

Please elaborate on the frequency of bodies blanks being misaligned in CNC routers.

[knuckle_head]

Originally Posted by 202dy

Please elaborate on the frequency of bodies blanks being misaligned in CNC routers.

It isn't misalignment. It is reliance on traditional placement for E tuning when at least 1/4" extra depth is called for for B tuning. CNC is very good at putting bridges where they always have been - that is the issue.

[Jamie_Funk]

Originally Posted by knuckle_head

It isn't misalignment. It is reliance on traditional placement for E tuning when at least 1/4" extra depth is called for for B tuning. CNC is very good at putting bridges where they always have been - that is the issue.

+1 - Had a Yamaha 5 string with this issue - put a Gotoh bridge on and mounted it farther back -issue solved.

The new BB series deals with this in an interesting way - the B string portion only is designed to allow more intonation adjustment as that portion only of the bridge goes a bit further back - many think the extra length means longer SCALE but that is of course not the case ...

[Jazzdogg]

Originally Posted by knuckle_head

ABM has been providing the bridges I have used - I understand they are hard to come by at present and there is an awful rumor that they aren't making any more.

ETS has an awesome single string bridge (I am a fan of their Tuning Fork bridges) - again they are hard to come by.

Hipshot has a bridge that is very similar to the ABM, except that they offer string through facility that will require routing in to the top of the bass.

Thank you!