String brand and intonation issue (TI, Squier content)

[emor]

I am looking for an explanation and possible solution to a string and/or set-up problem I'm having.

I have an older Squier Jazz that was in the case unplayed for a number of years. It developed a bit of back bow in the neck resulting in too-high action, which I corrected by clamping and adding a washer to the nut of the truss rod. I also put on a set of TI Flats (JF 344) for the lower tension.

I'm really digging the TIs and the lower action on this bass, but I am unable to intonate the bridge sufficiently on the E string, and to a lesser extent, the A string. (It gets flatter as I move up the neck). I have the saddles maxed out (in the direction of the headstock) and it is still out of tune.

I put the D'Addario Half-Round back on and was able to intonate it properly.

I put another set of the same TIs on my P Bass, and have had no problems setting it up.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks.

[emor]

bump

[202dy]

Originally Posted by emor

I am looking for an explanation and possible solution to a string and/or set-up problem I'm having.

I have an older Squier Jazz that was in the case unplayed for a number of years. It developed a bit of back bow in the neck resulting in too-high action, which I corrected by clamping and adding a washer to the nut of the truss rod. I also put on a set of TI Flats (JF 344) for the lower tension.

I'm really digging the TIs and the lower action on this bass, but I am unable to intonate the bridge sufficiently on the E string, and to a lesser extent, the A string. (It gets flatter as I move up the neck). I have the saddles maxed out (in the direction of the headstock) and it is still out of tune.

I put the D'Addario Half-Round back on and was able to intonate it properly.

I put another set of the same TIs on my P Bass, and have had no problems setting it up.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks.

Generally speaking, if the one set of strings will intonate but another will not the problem is at the nut. That said, it could be at the saddle. Add to that flatwound string pitch centerpoints can sometimes be difficult to detect. But there are some questions. What are the string gauges? Was a witness point established with both sets? What kind of tuner is being used?

[emor]

Originally Posted by 202dy

Generally speaking, if the one set of strings will intonate but another will not the problem is at the nut. That said, it could be at the saddle. Add to that flatwound string pitch centerpoints can sometimes be difficult to detect. But there are some questions. What are the string gauges? Was a witness point established with both sets? What kind of tuner is being used?

Thanks for the reply.
First, let me correct myself. I used the term "back bow" when I think I meant "up bow." (The neck was bowed away from the strings resulting in too much relief.) Sorry, I'm still learning about this stuff--which brings me to the term "witness point." After reading your post, I did a search and found several references to the term, but not a really concise definition. From what I gather, it is the point at which the string "breaks" over the saddle and is established by downward pressure in front of the bridge. Is that correct?
Obviously, this is something that I hadn't done. More detailed information regarding that and proper nut set-up would be appreciated.

String info:
Thomastik-Infeld JF344 .043 .056 .070 .100
D'Addario ENR71 Half Rounds .045 .065 .080 .100

Boss TU-2 Chromatic Tuner

[202dy]

Thank you for your kind words.

Joshua is spot on a witness point. It is sometimes refered to as a speaking point. Regardless of the terminology, if a string does not have a definite point from which to speak it's pitch can waver. This means there is no solid fundamental and the harmonics will be all over the map. Obviously a string that does not produce a strong fundamental will be impossible to intonate. Creating a witness point is easy to do. Simply push down on the string just to the nut side of TDC of the saddle. Push just hard enough to create a small bend in the string. That's it.

Some other thoughts:

If there is a good witness point in the string then there can be a problem in either the nut or the saddle. If the string seat is worn, has a burr or blemish, or is mishapen in any way it will cause the string to "take off" from a different place. It is not as much a problem at the bridge where the saddle can be adjusted to take into account the anomaly. At the nut it is a bit trickier. It is important for the string to beak just at the fingerboard edge of the nut. If there is a high spot in the middle or the headstock side of the groove in the nut it effectively changes the scale of the bass as regarding fret placement. The remedy is to file the groove to eliminate any high spots. This not a job for those who are neither possess the correct tool nor handy in the extreme. The difference between a properly set up nut and blowing the nut is very, very slim.

More thoughts:

Sometimes there is not enough down pressure (string angle) between the tuners and the nut. This will mimic the "hump in the groove" scenario. The string is stopped at a point other than the front or fingerboard side of the nut. Sometimes a witness point can be introduced here but if there is enought string length it should be rewound on the tuner.

Sometimes the problem is a false string. No way to remedy this other than to replace the string. Your retailer should do this gratis. The string manufacturer will replace the string for the retailer free of charge. If neither are willing to behave in this manner they should both be boycotted.

Sometimes it is operator error. The string is simply installed incorrectly. Maybe there is a twist in it or it is too short. If this is the case it would be prudent to seek out a professional and ask to observe some restringings. Lessons on stringing a guitar? Absolutely. No one teaches people to do it. A luthier should be delighted if for no other reason that when it is time to work on that guitar it is strung properly making it easier to diagnose problems and remove the strings. Plus it gives them a chance to show off and someone to talk with while working. It can get lonely at the bench sometimes. Most guys will do it for free if you purchase a set of strings from them.

[emor]

Thanks so much for the information.

I've been using the guidelines from the Fender Support page.
For the E string they recommend pulling the string past the tuning post and trimming at 3" (3 1/2" for the others). This is for standard tuning keys--my P bass has vintage tuners and the recommendation is 4" and 4 1/2" respectively. There are 2 1/2 revolutions of string on the post.

I lowered the pickups (Lindy Fralin) a bit more on the bass side and this actually got rid of some of the harmonic weirdness I was hearing. The pole pieces of both pickups are now at about 5/32" from the bottom of the E string. I pushed down on the string in front of the saddle. It improved the intonation a bit, but the octave is still reading flat. The saddle itself is smooth and doesn't appear to have any defects.

While I hear and respect your warning about attempting to work on the nut myself, this instrument has become a project bass (for my own education) and I was looking to replace the nut at some point to change the string spacing slightly. I am a cabinet and furniture maker (though not a luthier by any stretch of the imagination) so I am not unfamiliar with tools and a certain level of precision. I think it's something I'd like to attempt. If I understand you correctly, the slot depth should be beveled a little bit with the high point on the fingerboard side.

Thanks again.