String Rattle Like Theres No Tommorow

[The modifier]

Today I got to straightening out the bow on my 5ver and lowered the action to about 3 mm at the 12th fret, it can fit a cigarette paper at the 8th fret with the 1st fret and 24th fret held down, now every string is buzz rattle free, except for the first 5 frets of the B string which rattle and buzz like there's no tomorrow im thinking the neck is a little to straight?

[202dy]

Originally Posted by The modifier

Today I got to straightening out the bow on my 5ver and lowered the action to about 3 mm at the 12th fret, it can fit a cigarette paper at the 8th fret with the 1st fret and 24th fret held down, now every string is buzz rattle free, except for the first 5 frets of the B string which rattle and buzz like there's no tomorrow im thinking the neck is a little to straight?

In all probability your fingerboard is too straight. A cigarette paper is ~.003". Average relief is ~.012". Loosen the nut a bit and see what that does.

[The modifier]

I lack a pair of feeler gauges what common household item should be around .012". ????

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by 202dy

In all probability your fingerboard is too straight. A cigarette paper is ~.003". Average relief is ~.012". Loosen the nut a bit and see what that does.

+1 those big bass strings need room to vibrate..ad relief.

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by The modifier

I lack a pair of feeler gauges what common household item should be around .012". ????

I've said this before but..... feeler guages will only send you to the insane asylum, put them away.........

Adjust the relief until the buzziest spot on the neck is not objectionably buzzy anymore. On yours it sounds like it's that area of the B string (on my L2500 it's half position on the A string, on my L2000 it's half position on the D and G strings).

You can finesse it some by adjusting the action, but usually you want the action set so the buzz is just above objectionable at the heel. At that point you basically shouldn't have to adjust it anymore or only a very little bit as you go back and forth.

So basically it's adjust rod, adjust action if needed, check for buzz, repeat.....

LS

[J.D.B.]

Like "power-timing" as Unclejane said. Best method.
Josh

[JustDavid]

Originally Posted by unclejane

I've said this before but..... feeler guages will only send you to the insane asylum, put them away.........

This explains a LOT about me!!

I see merit to your path, but one thing I like about the feeler gauge method is you can set relief independant of saddle & nut height. Once nut & saddle are in the ballpark I'd readily use your path for action refinement, but before that there's a real risk of misadjusting the truss rod to correct for a different issue.

[ErebusBass]

you could try raising the B string a little bit, see if that did anything.

[The modifier]

Thanks for all the help I did loosen the truss rod little by little , in the end I had to loosen it quite a bit but the rattle is now gone, again thanks for the replies.

[debassr]

unclejane's advice is solid. I would also add that truss rod adjustments sometimes take a while to settle in. Some people say you should wait days between adjustments, I wait an hour or two with pretty good results.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by The modifier

I lack a pair of feeler gauges what common household item should be around .012". ????

A business card is commonly suggested on TB.

Feeler gauges are inexpensive. The advantage to using them is that it allows you to quantify the set up. Once you have the instrument adjusted the way you like it you can measure the relief and string heights. The next time you perform a set up it is quick and easy to replicate what you did the last time. The other advantage is if there is a problem with a subsequent adjustment, some fret buzz for instance, you have already eliminated a everything related to the set up. It becomes a simple matter to finding the offending fret(s).

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by JustDavid

This explains a LOT about me!!

I see merit to your path, but one thing I like about the feeler gauge method is you can set relief independant of saddle & nut height. Once nut & saddle are in the ballpark I'd readily use your path for action refinement, but before that there's a real risk of misadjusting the truss rod to correct for a different issue.

Well the main problem there is the correct relief is _not_ independent of saddle and nut height. When you change either or both of those, the relief you need for the action and sound you prefer can, and in fact will, change.

This is why measuring this and that will just drive you crazy. what you want as far as action and tone may not jive with this or that measurement.

I.e. The typical tech would probably blow a gasket if they saw how I setup my basses. Especially if they relied on measurements with feeler guages I'd have to Nelson em to keep em away from my G&L's with wrenches and tools.

So the measurements don't really mean anything playability-wise. It's sort of like trying to improve the Mona Lisa, you just can't do it unless you're Da Vinci....

Setup is kind of an art. There are some general guidelines you can follow to get started, but to get it where you want it, you just have to adjust until it's the way _you_ want it.

LS

[The modifier]

Originally Posted by unclejane

Well the main problem there is the correct relief is _not_ independent of saddle and nut height. When you change either or both of those, the relief you need for the action and sound you prefer can, and in fact will, change.

This is why measuring this and that will just drive you crazy. what you want as far as action and tone may not jive with this or that measurement.

I.e. The typical tech would probably blow a gasket if they saw how I setup my basses. Especially if they relied on measurements with feeler guages I'd have to Nelson em to keep em away from my G&L's with wrenches and tools.

So the measurements don't really mean anything playability-wise. It's sort of like trying to improve the Mona Lisa, you just can't do it unless you're Da Vinci....

Setup is kind of an art. There are some general guidelines you can follow to get started, but to get it where you want it, you just have to adjust until it's the way _you_ want it.

LS

HAHAHAHHAHAH haha I could almost picture the tech being held back ,thanks angain, ill see how it settled in tomorrow, as regards to me sound I usually play korn covers so I usually dump out the midrange, I dint notice any major change in my sound after loosening the trussrod a bit.

[JustDavid]

Originally Posted by unclejane

Well the main problem there is the correct relief is _not_ independent of saddle and nut height.

It might be that we use the terms differently or view the mechanics differently. Or both Or that you are more used to doing setups than I.

For me, neck relief is the measurement of curvature when the neck is fretted at first & last frets. That is independant of nut or saddle height.

I'd be inclined to use the measurements method on a new-to-me bass or one that needs major adjustment to get the instrument decently setup. Then jump to a feel-based method. Step 1 to get it playing OK, step 2 to get it playing wonderfully.

[Turnaround]

Originally Posted by unclejane

I've said this before but..... feeler guages will only send you to the insane asylum, put them away.........
LS

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this view. If you cannot measure your starting point, everything you do from there on is guess work. You might be lucky and happen upon a setup that suits you, but unless you are well versed in the intracacies of setup, your chances are limited if you don't start from a well-defined root. I advocate starting form a well-proven measured position and venturing from there.

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by Turnaround

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this view. If you cannot measure your starting point, everything you do from there on is guess work. You might be lucky and happen upon a setup that suits you, but unless you are well versed in the intracacies of setup, your chances are limited if you don't start from a well-defined root. I advocate starting form a well-proven measured position and venturing from there.

Er, that's what a good setup is - an action and tone that suits you.

It's not guesswork or luck, it's a craft (skills at setting action height, recognizing what settings of the relief yeild what results) and and art (personal taste determining which results are desired).

My view from setting up bazillions of these things is that, yes, you can start off with such and such measurements, but it doesn't really buy you anything. It's ok, just unnecessary and actually more drives you nuts than anything else.

You still have to know what raising/lowering the saddles does, working the truss rod does, how to recognize a suitable nut height and etc. AND you still have to set it according to personal taste.

I.e. my basses end up with very flat necks (no measurable relief) and extremely low action at the heel.
A friend of mine from college setup his fender precision with what looked like 1/2" of action at the heel and a LOT of relief in the neck, all intentional.
But both setups are perfectly suitable for each of us even tho neither comes even close to "correct" measurements of relief, action and nut height....

LS

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by JustDavid

It might be that we use the terms differently or view the mechanics differently. Or both Or that you are more used to doing setups than I.

For me, neck relief is the measurement of curvature when the neck is fretted at first & last frets. That is independant of nut or saddle height.

Ah, I see what you're saying now. I was more talking about what ends up being a desireable relief once you adjust nut height and saddle height.....

I'd be inclined to use the measurements method on a new-to-me bass or one that needs major adjustment to get the instrument decently setup. Then jump to a feel-based method. Step 1 to get it playing OK, step 2 to get it playing wonderfully.

I tried the business card method for setting relief once and it just ended up taking longer than just doing the setup by feel.
No matter how badly screwed up it is to start with it always works for both fretted and fretless:

- set action for right-above objectionable (for me) buzz at heel, i.e. last few fret positions
- set nut height for acceptable pressure at half position/first fret

check for buzz:
- too much either everywhere or somewhere on neck, add relief
- no buzz but action too high, take out relief
- readjust action and nut height as necessary.
repeat.....

works every time and on every bass I've ever setup.

Like I said, personal taste determines where you actually end up. a guy I knew back in college had an older Fender precision (bet that thing is worth a mint now) that he always setup with this stratosphere high action and with a scary amount of relief in the neck. I could barely push the strings down to the frets on this thing, but that was how he liked the bass setup.
He had a monsterous Jamerson like tone (he was a pick player) and never got tired in his left hand, playing all night on it...... So it worked for him perfectly and he sounded/played great....

LS

[elBandito]

I fail to see how saddle and nut height are related to relief? When first and last frets are held, all those variable are taken out. Saddle height affects tension, so you may have to compensate, but there is no direct correlation. And on a decent neck, tension from raising the saddle is negligible. Standard measurement is a good thing. Sadowsky must be doing something right. If it works for him, it works for me.

Originally Posted by unclejane

Well the main problem there is the correct relief is _not_ independent of saddle and nut height. When you change either or both of those, the relief you need for the action and sound you prefer can, and in fact will, change.

[dannster]

Do you play your bass by first holding down the strings at the first and last fret? No? Hmmm.......

Originally Posted by elBandito

I fail to see how saddle and nut height are related to relief? When first and last frets are held, all those variable are taken out. Saddle height affects tension, so you may have to compensate, but there is no direct correlation. And on a decent neck, tension from raising the saddle is negligible. Standard measurement is a good thing. Sadowsky must be doing something right. If it works for him, it works for me.

[elBandito]

Ive never seen any pros, who set up this way.

Originally Posted by unclejane

- set action for right-above objectionable (for me) buzz at heel, i.e. last few fret positions
- set nut height for acceptable pressure at half position/first fret

check for buzz:
- too much either everywhere or somewhere on neck, add relief
- no buzz but action too high, take out relief
- readjust action and nut height as necessary.
repeat.....