super short scale bass intonation problems

Kevinlee · #1 05-21-2010, 11:51 AM

I have this funky old no name super short scale bass. The scale length from nut to bridge is 23 1/2".......The length from nut to 12th fret is 11 3/4"....the length from 12th fret to bridge is also 11 3/4"
But when it come's to intonation and the bass being in tune with it's self in different playing positions it is just off. Any suggestions as how to remedy this?

Thanks
Kevinlee

mongo2 · #2 05-21-2010, 12:40 PM

First off, what strings/gauges are you using on such a short scale?

Second, are the saddles adjustable for intonation?

Kevinlee · #3 05-21-2010, 03:52 PM

The strings are flatwound ghs 3020. They'er for a 30" scale but I still had to cut them down a bit. I don't have adustable saddles on it. It's a wooden bridge kind of like what you'ed see on a beatle bass. I have it angled so the E string side is a little closer. I can get it to where it will play all the fretted notes in the first or second position by the nut fairly in tune but if I play an open string it will be way flat or sharp or something. And If I tune the open strings then some of the fretted notes will be out. There doesn't seem to be any specific rhyme or reason or patten to this. It's kind of random. Very frustrating. I'm not really planing on doing anything with the bass as far as playing it on stage or anything at this point but I'd like to get it to where it would play in tune. It would make a nice little beater bass for travel.

SurferJoe46 · #4 05-21-2010, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevinlee

The strings are flatwound ghs 3020. They'er for a 30" scale but I still had to cut them down a bit. I don't have adustable saddles on it. It's a wooden bridge kind of like what you'ed see on a beatle bass. I have it angled so the E string side is a little closer. I can get it to where it will play all the fretted notes in the first or second position by the nut fairly in tune but if I play an open string it will be way flat or sharp or something. And If I tune the open strings then some of the fretted notes will be out. There doesn't seem to be any specific rhyme or reason or patten to this. It's kind of random. Very frustrating. I'm not really planing on doing anything with the bass as far as playing it on stage or anything at this point but I'd like to get it to where it would play in tune. It would make a nice little beater bass for travel.

You sure that someone didn't just take a table saw to a longer neck and then bolt it on?

Measure the length of the top nut to the 12th fret and that better be pretty close to the length from the 12th to the string contact point on the bridge too.

If not - you got problems.

Kevinlee · #5 05-21-2010, 06:07 PM

No the necks a complete neck. It's a wierd old tiesco or something. I've seen one or two of these over the years. They are just really short, about the size of a strat, maybe even a little shorter. The length from nut to 12th fret is the same as from 12th fret to bridge as I stated in my first post. I may put a different type of bridge on it at one point and see if that helps.

Thanks

mongo2 · #6 05-21-2010, 07:14 PM

Did you try checking the intonation using the 12th fretted note and 12th fret harmonic and a tuner?

SurferJoe46 · #7 05-21-2010, 09:15 PM

Perhaps there's something else to consider too :::

Is the action very high in that you have to press the string too far to get it to the frets?

High action would have a more detrimental effect to intonation if you had to push the string a large distance to the fretboard, in that it would tighten the string and in effect raise the pitch.

I had an old Carlos Acoustic 6-er that had that trouble and the fret boards wore out and then the string had to go further to get held tightly to make a note/chord.

It was in tune open-stringed, but as soon as I fretted it, it went South. The Carlos made a warm fire on a cold night.

That fretting/sharping happens on every instrument and that's where luthiers really make their money by knowing of that consideration in design and placement of frets - but a very short neck would exacerbate the situation methinks if anything else was almost right - but out of normal parameters.

Kevinlee · #8 05-21-2010, 10:32 PM

You know this sounds possible. The action is on the high side. I think the nut slots could be a little deeper. I will try taking them down a little and see what happens. A luthier could put it in better shape I'm sure, but it's really just a cheap old funky bass and I'd rather not invest any money in it. I don't mind doing what I can to it myself though. It definately falls under the DIY catagory. Worse case scenario it will look cool hanging on a wall somewhere.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions
Kevinlee

wideyes · #9 05-21-2010, 11:48 PM

Sounds to me like that wooden bridge isn't cutting it. That'd be the first culprit in my mind. It might have poor fretwork too. Maybe time for some modding?

mongo2 · #10 05-22-2010, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wideyes

Sounds to me like that wooden bridge isn't cutting it. That'd be the first culprit in my mind.

True, though a floating wood bridge can usually be angled for a reasonable approximation.

Another thought I had is the strings my be fubar if the wrapping slipped after cutting them shorter, especially if the cut was in what was originally intended to be the speaking length of the string. I've seen a site where someone soldered the outer string windings prior to cutting the string to prevent slippage of the wrap.

Kevinlee · #11 05-22-2010, 04:18 AM

I'm not opposed to trying a bridge with individual saddles if I come across one for next to nothing. As I stated earlier I just don't want to start sinking money into this bass. It's never going to be much more then a cheap Japanese beater bass, whcih is fine. I'm not trying to make it into something more than that. Just a cheap beater bass that plays in tune. As for the frets I was actually thinking of pulling the frets out. I play upright 90 % of the time these days anyway so making it a fretless isn't a problem for me. Well I should say playing a fretless isn't a problem, making it into a fretless might be a problem. I've never done it, but I'm basicly aware of how to do it. Any advice on how to go about pulling frets and what to fill the gaps with would be appreciated also.

walterw · #12 05-22-2010, 09:32 AM

"super short scale bass = intonation problems"

fixed the title for you

SurferJoe46 · #13 05-22-2010, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevinlee

I'm not opposed to trying a bridge with individual saddles if I come across one for next to nothing. As I stated earlier I just don't want to start sinking money into this bass. It's never going to be much more then a cheap Japanese beater bass, whcih is fine. I'm not trying to make it into something more than that. Just a cheap beater bass that plays in tune. As for the frets I was actually thinking of pulling the frets out. I play upright 90 % of the time these days anyway so making it a fretless isn't a problem for me. Well I should say playing a fretless isn't a problem, making it into a fretless might be a problem. I've never done it, but I'm basicly aware of how to do it. Any advice on how to go about pulling frets and what to fill the gaps with would be appreciated also.

Going fretless and worrying about intonation on such a short neck becomes an oxymoron.

Use lots of vibrato - no-one will notice bad intonation that way.

Kevinlee · #14 05-22-2010, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Going fretless and worrying about intonation on such a short neck becomes an oxymoron.
Use lots of vibrato - no-one will notice bad intonation that way.

That's kinda what I was thinking

Kevinlee · #15 05-22-2010, 11:10 AM

Quote:

super short scale bass = intonation problems

This got me thinking...If this is true, and it seems to be on this bass anyway.....How do Guitarron's get around this?
Seems they have a farily short scale length, anywhere from 23" to 25" (I just checked on this) seems to be the norm. And they also have high action, which someone mentioned earlier can also be part of the problem.

This is all turning sorta academic but the reason for short scale basses having tuning problems in general, has me puzzeled.

wideyes · #16 05-22-2010, 01:28 PM

The DeArmond ashbory has a wicked short scale length, and folks find a way to play them in tune. I'd say defret!

walterw · #17 05-22-2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wideyes

The DeArmond ashbory has a wicked short scale length, and folks find a way to play them in tune. I'd say defret!

solid rubber strings, which vibrate at way lower frequencies for a given scale length; a completely different beast.

+1 to action being a big contributing factor; get the neck almost straight, get the nut slots really low, and get the bridge as low as it will go without undue buzzing, and the intonation will be somewhat less hideous.

T-Bird · #18 05-22-2010, 11:10 PM

Hi.

IME on intonation problems, incorrectly cut nut is usually the cause. The witness point isn't where it supposed to be, so intonating the FB is impossible.

mongo2 had a good one as well. Did the string stay dead straight after the shortening, or did it twist a bit? If it did, the winding structure released some tension unevenly and intonating is again impossible.

BTW, what's with all the hate towards floating bridges lately? Especially on older, not so accurately cut FB instruments. The truth is that a floating bridge is usually more adjustable than 2 saddle vintage bridge for example.

Regards
Sam

walterw · #19 05-23-2010, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mongo2

I've seen a site where someone soldered the outer string windings prior to cutting the string to prevent slippage of the wrap.

I've had to do that plenty of times when faced with making the wrong string work on a shorter scale.

I solder the spot I want to preserve thouroughly to prevent any unwrapping (which will kill the string), cut it a couple inches past that spot, then unwind the outer layer to get a section of skinny "starter" string that will go into the post properly.