System 3 Mirror Coat Epoxy on Fretless neck

[joeyl]

now that would be the tool to radius

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_Trj...7&feature=plcp

[JacoNOT]

Originally Posted by joeyl

now that would be the tool to radius

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_Trj...7&feature=plcp

See this, Grizzly USA
It's the fretboard sanding attachment used in that video - it mounts atop a long horizontal belt sander.

See this
The owner of Griz is crazy about guitar building.

OOPS.
Here's the whole machine, sander and radiusing jig

[Bruce Johnson]

Many years back, I built a rig like the Grizzly setup, a swinging fixture over a long belt sander, for radiusing fingerboards. It kind of worked, but it was a pain. It took too long, built up too much heat in the neck, and was too much trouble to set up accurately. Long belt sanders are wonderful for many jobs (I have two of them in my shop), but they don't make an accurate straight surface, at least not to the level of accuracy that you need for a fingerboard.

Back around 1994, I built a special fixture for radiusing fingerboards using a router. I've cut the fingerboards on at least 800 necks on it since then. I can set up the necks accurately and bring the thickness, radius and flatness to within 0.005". And I'll bet it takes me less time than that guy in the video with the Grizzly sander.

If you haven't seen it, here's a link to a series of pages showing how I build my Scroll Bass necks:
http://www.xstrange.com/Building/Buildingneck1.html
If you flip back to Page 8, about halfway down, you'll see my fingerboard radiusing rig. It's a little complicated to explain the setup, but you can see how it works. The router is on a base with curved bottom rails, which slides on two round aluminum rails. The neck is held in blocks that clamp between the side walls, and it's position is set accurately with various gauges that register off of the rails. I have a whole series of different router bases covering radiuses from flat to 4". In that picture, it's set up to do the 4" radius I use on my Series IV Scroll Basses.

If I were going to do epoxy coated fingerboards for customers, which I'm NOT interested in doing, I would pour them fairly thick, and then cut the level and radius in that fixture with the router. That would be a fraction of the work of cutting the surface by hand. The surface would still need to be fine sanded and buffed, but the bulk of the work would be done by the router.

[joeyl]

Bruce, thanks for the valuable insight, very grateful to have you post here.

If anybody is interested in seeing the damage This is done at 150 grit, you can see on the left hand side the lines are blurry because of being under the epoxy. On the right hand side, it is bright white.





It's ok though, I will do another pour with the added protection and knowing that the rosewood won't be gassing off as many bubbles this time

[joeyl]

Originally Posted by Bruce Johnson;12674940

If you haven't seen it, here's a link to a series of pages showing how I build my Scroll Bass necks:
[url

http://www.xstrange.com/Building/Buildingneck1.html[/url]
If you flip back to Page 8, about halfway down, you'll see my fingerboard radiusing rig. It's a little complicated to explain the setup, but you can see how it works. The router is on a base with curved bottom rails, which slides on two round aluminum rails. The neck is held in blocks that clamp between the side walls, and it's position is set accurately with various gauges that register off of the rails. I have a whole series of different router bases covering radiuses from flat to 4". In that picture, it's set up to do the 4" radius I use on my Series IV Scroll Basses.

very cool. I have seen some luthiers in the luthier section with the same kind of rig using a router. Most of them use radius blocks still. I would love to have access to that many tools

[JacoNOT]

Originally Posted by Bruce Johnson

If you haven't seen it, here's a link to a series of pages showing how I build my Scroll Bass necks:
http://www.xstrange.com/Building/Buildingneck1.html
If you flip back to Page 8, about halfway down, you'll see my fingerboard radiusing rig.

If I were going to do epoxy coated fingerboards...I would pour them fairly thick, and then cut the level and radius in that fixture with the router...The surface would still need to be fine sanded and buffed, but the bulk of the work would be done by the router.

Bruce ==

Fantastic. I began to feel faint by the time I hit page 7 (the round file bent into a loop, GASP!) I'm dying to see your finished scroll bass product, but all other links appear to be DEAD.

Q1. If you need help re-establishing a crippled website, I will gladly assist you in obtaining excellent, reliable web hosting for well under $100 annually (no benefit to me). Send me a PM and I'll explain exactly how - a straightforward process with an extremely reputable, widely known hosting company.

Q2. Is my understanding correct? You would fix the epoxied neck in your router jig and use the router to carve the raw-poured epoxy, forming it into the correct radius AND a uniform thickness across the entire epoxy face. Yes?

Q3. If Q2 is correct:
a. What do you use for the router bit?
b. What router speed is appropriate for shaping epoxy?
c. Do you recommend any specific precautions for avoiding health risks from that process?

If you would prefer to not discuss any of this publically, I hope you'll consider PMing me instead. Of course, if you treat this information as proprietary, I'll certainly understand.

Amazing.

[JacoNOT]

Joey ==

So is that bare wood strip along the right edge (per photos) the only high spot? If so, GREAT! I ask only because your initial observation described what I imagined to be more of a short hump in the surface. It's funny how a little sanding can identify quickly and clearly what's really happening across a supposedly flat surface... or

It's also funny how "problems" and "setbacks" often turn out to be blessings in disguise. You're going to end up with a great, straight neck as a result of this.

[joeyl]

Originally Posted by JacoNOT

Joey ==

So is that bare wood strip along the right edge (per photos) the only high spot? If so, GREAT! I ask only because your initial observation described what I imagined to be more of a short hump in the surface. It's funny how a little sanding can identify quickly and clearly what's really happening across a supposedly flat surface... or

It's also funny how "problems" and "setbacks" often turn out to be blessings in disguise. You're going to end up with a great, straight neck as a result of this.

yes. I think I will be ok and yes that's the only high spot, it's not the dreaded ski-jump or end-of-board hump that some Fenders suffer from. Those would have taken a bit more time to sand down

[Bruce Johnson]

JacoNot;

Thanks for the compliments.

To answer your questions:
Q1: Thanks for your offer of help, but my web site isn't crippled. It's way out of date, and I'm in the process completely rewriting it. Those pages I linked to cover the construction of the necks of my Series IV model Scroll Basses. They are draft pages that I placed on the server, to send out to potential customers as needed. That's why many of the links don't work and there are some typos and errors. There are other sections covering the construction of the bodies and pickups, plus others in work covering the metal hardware, painting, and final assembly. All of those sections were going to be integrated together into one portion of my updated site.

However, I've stopped offering the Series IV model for now, as I'm reworking my overall product line and introducing several new models. So, all of those pages are now effectively obsolete. I'm going to have to re-photograph and rewrite them all to cover the new models.

If you want get an overdose of Scroll Basses, including vintage Ampegs and many of my new ones, page through this thread: love of Ampeg and other Scroll Basses

Q2 & Q3: Yes, If I were doing epoxy coated fingerboards on my basses, or as a service on customers' necks, I would do the major shaping and leveling of the epoxy with a router in my neck radiusing fixture. A router does a beautiful job cutting epoxy, using standard carbide router bits and speeds (usually 20,000 rpm). It's a messy job, because the epoxy comes off in little shavings with static electricity, so they want to cling to everything. As with wood, you don't want to swallow it or breathe it. You should always wear a dust mask or respirator when routing, because a router tends to make a cloud of very fine particles.

As you can see in those pages, I use epoxy for almost all gluing operations in building my basses, including casting the truss rods into the neck. I'm routing dried epoxy in many of the steps of my process. When I'm restoring old Ampegs, I often use epoxy directly for filling areas and leveling broken wood. I've even used it to repair holes in vintage pickguards, tinting it black and polishing it up to a gloss. So, I'm quite familiar with how the various types and brands of epoxy can be shaped and worked.

I mostly use West Systems 105 series epoxy. West Systems and System 3 are competing companies, both making similar high-grade marine-type epoxies. They have about the same properties of strength and hardness. The System 3 Mirror Coat is a better choice for coating a fingerboard, because it's very clear and transparent. The West Systems is kind of yellowish.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of epoxy coated fingerboards. I'm an old-school flatwounds-on-ebony type. But I understand that some of you guys are into the Jaco thing, and that's fine.

I'm sure that somebody could set themselves up specializing in epoxy coating fingerboards, and make a nice little side business out of it. There are enough customers. I'm not interested in it myself. Too busy already with my own things!

[joeyl]

ok,

so I basically redid the dam and poured another thicker layer. This time I used an old plastic nut (did not have aluminum handy that I could shape like a nut) made it thinner so that it could slip easily in the nut slot with masking tape around it. Placed it in the slot and did the dam around like before.

After it cured for a week, this time I put a strip of masking tape running along the center of the neck. This was my guide: since the sides are higher, once I see that the tape in the middle is getting sanded, I knew the radius was right and it was time to stop. I started with the radius block and 180grit, then 220 and finally 320.

I also bought a leveling bar from ebay, it is a nice piece of 16" aluminum square tube, very flat and filled with rice and both ends are capped with rubber plugs. It is heavy by itself. I used that and 320grit stick-it that came with it to make sure the string paths were level.


Then the fun part:

Sanding with abralon pads 360, then 500.



Here is how it looks after the 500

[joeyl]

after 600 grit still with Abralon pads wet (I know I took the chance! but I cannot do final sanding dry )



800 grit



pics of the slurry at 1000






At 1000grit it looked pretty flat with tiny scratches

[joeyl]

yep I have one blemish, that was a big dust speck that was trapped inside and I did not see it until it was sanded out and left the tiny hole.

I think that's at 2000 grit








The sides look pretty clean and the epoxy coat tapers to nothing on the edges
At the seventh fret, the wood appears discolored from the acetone and me sanding some trace of epoxy that seeped out, I will rub some tru-oil there to try to even it out

[joeyl]

more pics





reflecting light fixtures.



that tiny blemish again, it is a cool reminder that it is hard to fight dust

[joeyl]

this morning: reflecting the taillights of the car outside the window



Nut job. I was surprised that my nut files do not leave a more rounded bottom, I will clean these out with some sandpaper wrapped around a credit card.





Looks like I can go deeper with the nut slots. The G string is about perfect I think.
Also need to take the top of the nut since the slots go so deep on the fretless. I love the premade Cyclovac Fender nut, the only occasion where a pre-slotted nut can work. I usually use the stewmac nut spacing ruler.




I may use the buffing pad to polish it with rubbing compound but it looks glossy enough to me. The final sanding was done with 4000 grit Abralon pad. Since it is a playing surface I think mirror finishing would be dulled pretty quickly anyway. I'll see if I am up to the task tonight after I get back from work.

[JacoNOT]

Man, Joey. It looks beautiful. THANKS for the pics and info.

I say, treat that single blemish/pok as an "organic fret marker". I don't know where it's located on the fingerboard, but I'll bet you find yourself cueing off it for position sometimes...

I would like to have a fretless neck with fret lines AND dot inlaid fret markers. Some of the TB purists here will question my character/intellect/manhood for admitting such a weakness, but I care only about PLAYING the blasted thing, and playing it well. Not about impressing some bassist in some audience...somewhere...someday...maybe.

Those nut slots look awfully low / close to the fingerboard surface. I'm used to looking at nuts for fretted necks, and the frets certainly add height above the wood...so bear with me. It just looks like your G string slot is actually on the same plane as the fingerboard surface...
Q1. Please 'skool' me on this, if you can.

Also, it looks like the wet sanding didn't cause you any problems.
Q2. Did you have to take special precautions, such as washing the slurry off the sandpaper and the sanded surface after each stroke, etc?

Q3. How much time or how many strokes per grit?

Q4. How much time spent sanding overall?

Q5. IF you buff, what compound do you intend to use? I'm thinking a red or white rouge on a cotton buffing wheel...but I'm hoping BRUCE JOHNSON will show up and set me straight.

I'll bet Bruce will say the final buffing somehow enhances the playability, the sound, or the longevity of the surface. Just a guess on my part...

[joeyl]

Originally Posted by JacoNOT

Man, Joey. It looks beautiful. THANKS for the pics and info.

You are welcome.

Originally Posted by JacoNOT

I say, treat that single blemish/pok as an "organic fret marker". I don't know where it's located on the fingerboard, but I'll bet you find yourself cueing off it for position sometimes...

I would like to have a fretless neck with fret lines AND dot inlaid fret markers. Some of the TB purists here will question my character/intellect/manhood for admitting such a weakness, but I care only about PLAYING the blasted thing, and playing it well. Not about impressing some bassist in some audience...somewhere...someday...maybe.

I agree with you, on everything.

Originally Posted by JacoNOT

Those nut slots look awfully low / close to the fingerboard surface. I'm used to looking at nuts for fretted necks, and the frets certainly add height above the wood...so bear with me. It just looks like your G string slot is actually on the same plane as the fingerboard surface...
Q1. Please 'skool' me on this, if you can.

you can actually have the strings resting on the end of the fingerboard if you want on fretless. If you think about it the minimal amount of relief in the neck will still allow the string to vibrate. You also get mwah on the open notes.

Originally Posted by JacoNOT

Also, it looks like the wet sanding didn't cause you any problems.

nope, none whatsoever since the epoxy bonded pretty well with the cleaned rosewood.

Originally Posted by JacoNOT

Q2. Did you have to take special precautions, such as washing the slurry off the sandpaper and the sanded surface after each stroke, etc?

I did all the wet sanding by the kitchen sink! wet the pad, rub a couple of times, wipe off slurry with a paper towel, rinse pad and repeat.

Originally Posted by JacoNOT

Q3. How much time or how many strokes per grit?

I would say probably 20-30 strokes for each grit, or until the pad starts to produce no slurry at all

Originally Posted by JacoNOT

Q4. How much time spent sanding overall?

not sure, for the wet sanding part, probably an hour to hour and a half. I was talking to the wife during that time also. with the radius block and the lower grits, like forever, probably like 2 hours

Originally Posted by JacoNOT

Q5. IF you buff, what compound do you intend to use? I'm thinking a red or white rouge on a cotton buffing wheel...but I'm hoping BRUCE JOHNSON will show up and set me straight.

I will use what I have used for bodies, stewmac foam pad on a drill, 3M finesse it rubbing compound.

Originally Posted by JacoNOT

I'll bet Bruce will say the final buffing somehow enhances the playability, the sound, or the longevity of the surface. Just a guess on my part...

or not. He sounds like a pretty level headed guy who does not do hype.

[Bruce Johnson]

Great job, Joey! If you do a couple more of these, you'll probably find that you can do all of the sanding and polishing in under an hour total. You spent some extra time with the sanding pads on this one because you were being careful. I generally wet sand epoxy up to 1000 or 1500 grit. From there, buffing will take it to whatever level of gloss I want.

If you want to take it to a high gloss, the liquid buffing compound and the foam pad in a drill will do it. My personal favorite buffing compound is Meguiars' #105, but the 3M Finesse It series compounds work too.

Tip: The rubbing compounds will tend to leave a whitish residue along the edges and in corners. Getting rid of that residue can be really annoying. You think you've got it all cleaned off, then it dries, and the white junk is back. The trick is to wipe a tiny bit of Tru-Oil or Stew-Mac's Fingerboard Oil onto any of the white residue, then wipe off the excess and let it dry. For some reason, the "oil" tends to soak up the white buffing compound residue and make it disappear. I use the Stew-Mac oil for detailing out bodies and necks, after buffing.

You can go back and fill that little hole in the epoxy if you really want to. This type of epoxies will patch themselves nicely. First, clean the little hole thoroughly with some alcohol or lacquer thinner to make sure there's no grease or oil in it. Mix up some epoxy and put a little blob in the hole. Make sure you're not trapping an air bubble in it. After it's dry, use a small block or a file to roughly trim the blob down to the surface. Then level sand the area (only the area around the blob, not the whole fingerboard surface) and work back up through the grits and the buffing. You can use this process to repair any gouges or that happen later.

JacoNot: I don't know about that other stuff, but a high gloss fingerboard definitely increases your personal Polish and Reflectivity! Other than that, it's mostly for looks. If you want a satin look, wet sand it to 1000, then give it a light scrub with 0000 steel wool.

[joeyl]

Thanks Bruce!

Need to stop at store tonight to pick up some tru-oil

[JacoNOT]

Originally Posted by joeyl

Originally Posted by JacoNOT
I'll bet Bruce will say the final buffing somehow enhances the playability, the sound, or the longevity of the surface. Just a guess on my part...

or not. He sounds like a pretty level headed guy who does not do hype.

I just want to clarify: I was not in any way suggesting Bruce would engage in hype.

I meant only that Bruce knows his shyte, and might explain some hidden benefit that makes the buffing truly worthwhile.

[joeyl]

Originally Posted by JacoNOT

I just want to clarify: I was not in any way suggesting Bruce would engage in hype.

I meant only that Bruce knows his shyte, and might explain some hidden benefit that makes the buffing truly worthwhile.

I know, I was kidding...