tuning not happening.. why

[ToddC]

I'm trying to setup a Rogue LX405.
I straightened the neck as much as I trusted myself.
There is still a very slight dip in the neck.

I tuned all open strings.
The octave on all strings is flat. It requires a strong bend to get in tune.

The natural harmonic at the octave on all strings is smack on.

All strings are flat as of the first fret up.

The bridge on the G string is setup as short as possible. So I can't shorten the G string.

How should I proceed?
Please help.

BTW: I do not have a strobe tuner. I'm using the tuner in the Roland ME-20B and a Quick Tune tuner. Both give the same results.

tia

[Zooberwerx]

What do you mean?:

"The bridge on the G string is setup as short as possible. So I can't shorten the G string."

How 'bout the other string saddles?

Riis

[ToddC]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

What do you mean?:

"The bridge on the G string is setup as short as possible. So I can't shorten the G string."

How 'bout the other string saddles?

Riis

I guess I should have said the saddle is a short as it can get on the G string?

The other strings have room to be shortened. But I am not certain if its enough to get them in tune. I was hoping to get some insight before proceeding.

[Zooberwerx]

Not much clearer but I'll work with what I've got.
A pic of your bridge set-up would be nice.

The bridge saddle travels back and forth on a long screw. Is the G string saddle as far as it will go towards the neck or towards the butt end of the bass?

Riis

[ToddC]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

Not much clearer but I'll work with what I've got.
A pic of your bridge set-up would be nice.

The bridge saddle travels back and forth on a long screw. Is the G string saddle as far as it will go towards the neck or towards the butt end of the bass?

Riis

Towards the neck. Making the string as short as possible.

In regard to picture: The bridge glares so much with the flash seeing anything is impossible.

[EagleMoon]

It's always possible that the bridge was installed incorrectly. Too close to the neck. That's not too uncommon on less expensive basses.

[Zooberwerx]

Thanks for the clarification. IIRC, the G fretted at the 12 fret is flat when compared to the 12th fret harmonic? Few ideas:

*Press the string down at the top of the G string saddle to establish a "witness" point.

*Make sure you have nominal relief. A "too straight" neck will work against you...although others will argue this point!

*Try another G string, even a used one will suffice.

*Make sure the strings are seated evenly and cleanly in their respective nut slots.

Rule out the simple, easy-to-fix stuff first then let's go from there.

Riis

[ToddC]

Originally Posted by EagleMoon

It's always possible that the bridge was installed incorrectly. Too close to the neck. That's not too uncommon on less expensive basses.

How would I fix this? By that I mean how would I determine where the bridge needs to be? Is there formula for this?

tia

[ToddC]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

Thanks for the clarification. IIRC, the G fretted at the 12 fret is flat when compared to the 12th fret harmonic? Few ideas:

*Press the string down at the top of the G string saddle to establish a "witness" point.

I'm not sure what to do with this one. Do you mean do this while checking the tuning?

OR is this going to be a reborn bass? LOL sorry for the word play. Just had to do it.

[XylemBassGuitar]

Hi ToddC,

Sounds like a tough one. I'm not exactly sure what is going on with your bass, but here are a couple of other suggestions:

1) You want a pretty decent tuner, and it should be chromatic. I'm not sure about the quality of the ME-20B tuner, but in my experience, the Qwik Tunes are not good enough for setting an instrument's intonation. Ideally, you want to spend at least $80 on a tuner to get a good intonation, but you can get away with a $20 Korg CA-30.

2) Here is what I think Zooberwerx means by a "witness" point: You want to press the G down at the saddle to make sure it is actually contacting the saddle itself while you are playing the fretted octave and checking the tuning. It is possible that the G is contacting some point on the bridge that is farther away from the neck.

Let me know if I'm incorrect there, Zooberwerx.

It also sounds like you have nominal relief, just like Zooberwerx suggests, so that shouldn't be a problem.

How flat are the strings? Are we talking 1 cent, 10 cents, or more than 15 cents?

Let me know what you find out, hopefully we can figure this one out!

[EagleMoon]

Originally Posted by ToddC

How would I fix this? By that I mean how would I determine where the bridge needs to be? Is there formula for this?

tia

Yes, there is a formula to figure it out, but maybe somebody with more knowledge in this area can chip in. The other option would be to install a bridge that would give you longer adjusting length.

[XylemBassGuitar]

Sorry ToddC, I missed your question about calculating where the bridge needs to be, I'm glad that EagleMoon noticed that question.

What you are trying to find is called the "scale length."
To find out what the scale length of the bass is, measure from the middle of the nut to the top-middle of the twelfth fret, then double the measurement. The doubled measurement is your scale length. The most common scale length for a 5-string bass is 35". If you get something different than 35" you should be wary and probably take the instrument to a luthier or technician to check the measurement.

Once you have your scale length measurement, compare it to the distance from the middle of the nut to one of the middle saddles. If the measurements differ by more than about 1/8" (1/4" at the most) your bridge might be placed the wrong distance from the nut.

I probably wouldn't move the whole bridge yourself, unless you are really confident that you know what you're doing. Otherwise I would take it to a luthier/technician.

Good luck!

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by XylemBassGuitar

Hi ToddC,

Sounds like a tough one. I'm not exactly sure what is going on with your bass, but here are a couple of other suggestions:

1) You want a pretty decent tuner, and it should be chromatic. I'm not sure about the quality of the ME-20B tuner, but in my experience, the Qwik Tunes are not good enough for setting an instrument's intonation. Ideally, you want to spend at least $80 on a tuner to get a good intonation, but you can get away with a $20 Korg CA-30.

2) Here is what I think Zooberwerx means by a "witness" point: You want to press the G down at the saddle to make sure it is actually contacting the saddle itself while you are playing the fretted octave and checking the tuning. It is possible that the G is contacting some point on the bridge that is farther away from the neck.

Let me know if I'm incorrect there, Zooberwerx.

It also sounds like you have nominal relief, just like Zooberwerx suggests, so that shouldn't be a problem.

How flat are the strings? Are we talking 1 cent, 10 cents, or more than 15 cents?

Let me know what you find out, hopefully we can figure this one out!

XBG, you're spot-on.

A good tuner is a must. I use a Peterson ($$) but there are some great, less expensive models out there.

The "witness" point is created mashing down on the string where it crosses the bridge saddle. You only have to do it once unless you move the saddle quite a distance during the intonation process. This creates almost a permanent bend or kink in the string but it also ensure the string is in correct contact with the saddle. You do not have to hold the point during tuning / intonation. Note: its always better to intonate from flat to normal (in-tune) so any witness points fall behind the saddle. Chew on that one for awhile!

Nominal relief: Hold the G string down at the 1st and 17th frets. You should have a gap = thickness of 1-2 business cards at the 7th-9th fret. Varies from instrument to instrument but you get the idea.

Have you gotten the intonation straight on the other string?

Riis

[ToddC]

Originally Posted by XylemBassGuitar

Sorry ToddC, I missed your question about calculating where the bridge needs to be, I'm glad that EagleMoon noticed that question.

What you are trying to find is called the "scale length."
To find out what the scale length of the bass is, measure from the middle of the nut to the top-middle of the twelfth fret, then double the measurement. The doubled measurement is your scale length. The most common scale length for a 5-string bass is 35". If you get something different than 35" you should be wary and probably take the instrument to a luthier or technician to check the measurement.

Good luck!

OOOUUCH 16.5 inches to the middle of fret 12. That's a 33" scale length. To the saddle its 35 inches. So much for not being able to lose at 150 bucks. I'll never get this thing in tune.

[ToddC]

Originally Posted by ToddC

OOOUUCH 16.5 inches to the middle of fret 12. That's a 33" scale length. To the saddle its 35 inches. So much for not being able to lose at 150 bucks. I'll never get this thing in tune.

Recall on the measurement.
I measured to the middle of the space between the frets. I think you mean the middle of the actual fret. DUH.... like you said.

To the middle of the fret its 17". So I'm good with a 35" scale.
I've got a new set of strings coming so I'll see if they help.

[ToddC]

The funny thing is I just told my wife about my tuning dilemma. She felt sorry for me.
So I asked her to choose a color for the Human BaseX.oc5 I want.
She chose black.

How can I say no to that?
Tyler Salwender are you watching?

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by ToddC

The funny thing is I just told my wife about my tuning dilemma. She felt sorry for me.
So I asked her to choose a color for the Human BaseX.oc5 I want.
She chose black.

How can I say no to that?
Tyler Salwender are you watching?

Clever fellow!

I just tried the same line on Mrs. Zooberwerx. It didn't work. AAMOF, she told me to quit dickin' around with it and go finish weed-whacking the yard.

Riis

[ToddC]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

Clever fellow!

I just tried the same line on Mrs. Zooberwerx. It didn't work. AAMOF, she told me to quit dickin' around with it and go finish weed-whacking the yard.

Riis

LOL
Timing is everything :>)
I was just lucky. It happens as frequently as getting a B&C buck.

[ToddC]

Well I changed the strings and it still will not tune.
I guess I'll use it as a tennis racket.
No more cheap basses for this guy.

[EagleMoon]

If it were me, I'd move the bridge up about half an inch. If you won't be able to use it otherwise, what do you have to lose?