Tweaking the setup on a Rob Allen Mouse

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Hi folks - I'm visiting from the dark side and would like to admit right off the bat that I know very little about setting up a BG. Anyway...I recently bought a Rob Allen Mouse 30 and have been enjoying playing it quite a bit. Since I'm a DB player used to a 42" scale length and high tension strings, playing the Mouse is a bit disconcerting because the action is so low and there doesn't seem to be an easy way to change it.

The bass comes with Labella 760n black nylon strings, and has a fixed bridge with a built-in piezo pickup under the bridge. I'm looking for a little more clearance between the string and the board, and the feeling of slightly more tension in the strings (although I can live without the tension if I can get the clearance). It would seem my options would be:

1) See if there is a heavier gauge string available. Is there one? I'm such a newbie to BG issues that I'm not sure where to look.

2) Raise the bridge, or have a new one cut.

3) Adjust the camber of the board.

Which of these things would you try, and in what order? Sorry if these questions are very n00b-ish, but I'm really only used to adjusting the setup on basses of the doghouse variety.

[pkr2]

Hi, Chris. My suggestion would be to take the least invasive option.

I would definitely try adjusting the neck tilt/camber first. It's reversible if you don't like the result, and cheaper than new strings, along with their possibly different nut slot size requirement..

To put in more URB terms, it needs a neck reset. A quick search will give you the step by step, but it basically involves removing the bolt on neck and putting a thin shim in the end of the neck pocket. This results in an angle change in the neck body. Adjusting the shim thickness results in changing the action height.

I have a Tacoma TC ABG that I just had to do that very thing to. The change in 'feel' was like night and day.

I also went from URB to ebg, and there is a little learning curve involved but you'll find that it will come to you quickly. They are fun to play, though.

Hope this helps.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I heard from Rob Allen about this - he reports that there are no heavier gauges of the Labella strings, so that option is out. I gave the neck a 1/4 counterclockwise turn yesterday and will check in again today. The shim idea is interesting, but I'm not sure if that's less invasive than a new bridge saddle. Opinions? With a DB, it's not uncommon to have several bridges. To me it makes sense to have several saddles for a BG such as this, but like I said I'm a n00b when it comes to this stuff.

PKR - good to see you around again. It's been awhile.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I heard from Rob Allen about this - he reports that there are no heavier gauges of the Labella strings, so that option is out. I gave the neck a 1/4 counterclockwise turn yesterday and will check in again today. The shim idea is interesting, but I'm not sure if that's less invasive than a new bridge saddle. Opinions? With a DB, it's not uncommon to have several bridges. To me it makes sense to have several saddles for a BG such as this, but like I said I'm a n00b when it comes to this stuff.

PKR - good to see you around again. It's been awhile.

Two (or more) saddles is a great idea. An experienced player can swap out the saddle in a few minutes and be ready to go.

I did this for a few touring customers who might only come through the shop every six months or so. Their guitars would go through multiple weather changes while traveling. The problem for them was that they would be faced with trying to find a reliable repair shop in whatever town they might be in. so we made up two extra saddles, usually one shorter and one taller than their target height. Simple solution to a reoccurring problem.

BTW, shimming the neck is not a big deal for someone who is used to wrestling the adjustments on an URB. That is the beauty of the bolt on neck. If you are handy, you can try two or three different shim thickness and have the guitar ready for a final tweak in less than a half an hour.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by 202dy

Two (or more) saddles is a great idea. An experienced player can swap out the saddle in a few minutes and be ready to go.

Cool. This sounds like a reasonable alternative. If Rob thinks he should make it, I'll order one or two from him. If he thinks it would be easy for a local tech to make them, I'll do that.

BTW, shimming the neck is not a big deal for someone who is used to wrestling the adjustments on an URB. That is the beauty of the bolt on neck. If you are handy, you can try two or three different shim thickness and have the guitar ready for a final tweak in less than a half an hour.

I'm willing to give this a shot, but am a little antsy about diving in without careful instructions. I've searched for a link, but mostly found threads involving people arguing about whether/how to properly add a shim. Can anyone supply a reliable link about shimming to raise the action? Thanks in advance!

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I'm willing to give this a shot, but am a little antsy about diving in without careful instructions. I've searched for a link, but mostly found threads involving people arguing about whether/how to properly add a shim. Can anyone supply a reliable link about shimming to raise the action? Thanks in advance!

It is a simple procedure.

1. Loosen the strings.

2. Remove strings from peghead. This is optional. Quite often it can be skipped.

3. Remove neck bolts. Alternate star or X pattern like automobile lug nuts.

4. Gently remove the neck from the body. Some pockets are tighter than others. If it is difficult to remove the correct motion is to push the headstock in forward or backward (neck to strings) as opposed to side to side (bass to treble).

5. Make shim. Business cards are handy and readily available. Cut a card 3/16-1/4" wide by the length of the pocket. If the neck has rounded corners then approximate the corners on the edges of the shim if the shim is to be placed at the end of the neck.

6. Increasing the neck angle: place the shim at the end of the neck pocket south of the screw holes. This will tilt the headstock away from the bridge. The effect is to bring the fingerboard closer to the strings.

OR

7. Decrease the neck angle: Place the shim at the headstock end of the pocket north of the screw holes. This will tilt the headstock toward the bridge. The effect is to place the fingerboard farther away from the strings.

N.B. The results of steps six and seven are similar to tightening a truss rod (shim at body end of the pocket) or loosening the truss rod (shim at the headstock end of the pocket).

8. Replace the screws. The caveat here is to be careful with the internal threads in the wood. Place the screw in the hole and turn it CCW until it thumps into place. The beginning of the threads on the screw have found the beginning of threads in the wood. The screw will rise and fall. You will feel it. Now reverse direction and turn the screw CW. Use a star or X pattern. I usually leave the screws a bit loose before driving everything home. This assures that everything is lined up the way it is supposed to be. That entails replacing the strings before tightening the bolts. Choice is yours.

9. Replace strings if necessary and tune to pitch.

10. Decide if this is where you want the neck to be. This may require a setup. But before the setup is performed it is usually easy to tell if this adjustment is correct. If the neck should be moved in the same direction add a shim. If the movement is more than is desired, use a thinner material.


Anytime shims are discussed there will be a debate. One of the debates centers on shim material. Recommendations as to material selection are as many as the stars in the sky. Many will claim sonic excellence of one material over the other. It probably does make a difference but the real question is what kind of meter will be needed to measure the difference. If someone has a preference for one material over another, then by all means use that material. I like business card stock. It's paper. It's made from wood. I have a huge stack of them from people whose addresses have made their way into the electronic contact list so I don't have to cut up my own.

The second debate is over a shim size. Some use a thin strip of material. Others swear by a full pocket shim. The full pocket shim is exactly what it sounds like. It covers the entire bottom of the pocket. The argument usually made is that the full pocket shim promotes better sustain. Maybe it does. Refer to the meter question above. The best argument for the full pocket shim revolves around the thinking that over a long period of time the neck can develop an anomaly in the fingerboard. It is thought that if the bolts are driven over tightly that eventually the neck will bend over or around the shim. If the shim is at the base of the neck it will develop a "ski jump" or if it is at the headstock end it will develop a hump. Like the Mythbusters, it is plausible. But it is usually seen where an unusually thick shim. By unusually thick, think a sixteenth of an inch. It is undeniable that this large shim will offer better support than a penny or a thick tooth from the end of a comb. However, a full pocket shim is a lot of work. It is typically constructed from a piece of lumber that is the same as the body or the neck with the grain oriented in the same direction. Typically it will be as thick as the proper paper shim on the business end and taper to literally nothing at the opposite end. It is almost a necessity to have access to a stationary belt sander to perform create this part. And having experience in woodworking is a must or all that will result from the exercise is frustration and a pile of tapered toothpicks.

Most people make their shims with a slim piece of business card.

[Turnaround]

Nice one, 202dy.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Turnaround

Nice one, 202dy.

Amen. I'm going to try another 1/4 turn on the truss rod, give it a few days, and then if it still feels to "Van Halenish" I'll look into the raised saddle and/or shim. Thanks, guys.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I heard from Rob Allen about this - he reports that there are no heavier gauges of the Labella strings, so that option is out. I gave the neck a 1/4 counterclockwise turn yesterday and will check in again today. The shim idea is interesting, but I'm not sure if that's less invasive than a new bridge saddle. Opinions? With a DB, it's not uncommon to have several bridges. To me it makes sense to have several saddles for a BG such as this, but like I said I'm a n00b when it comes to this stuff.

PKR - good to see you around again. It's been awhile.

Good to see you too, Chris.

I agree that it sounds more invasive to shim than it does to refit a new saddle. The thoughts of tearing the neck off your bass to do a procedure that you're not sure of to start with.. I'd be sure too before I did it.

It really is a simpler procedure than putting on a set of strings. But, only to a person that is confident in his judgment of how to tighten a wood screw. Note carefully #8 in 202s great explanation. A little extra caution should be taken to put the screws back into the threads that they've already cut in the body. Obviously you will open the hole if new threads are cut into the wood each time the neck is removed.

I really don't like to muck around a xtal pup any more than is absolutely necessary because they are temperamental cusses. I've known a couple or three to go south for no reason. Sleeping dog sort of thing.

Maybe Rob Allen would offer a recommendations as to which approach to take.

Oh, if you ever have the neck off, you might be surprised that there is already a shim in the pocket, fresh from the factory. That's pretty much standard procedure for handmade and pre CNC basses. It's a difficult joint to make and even the best often have to be fine tuned with a shim.



I'm looking forward to you keeping us posted.

[202dy]

Thank you.

[Joe Smithberger]

Chris, I tend to play with quite a bit of relief on mine. Don't be afraid to work that a bit - truss rod adjustments are free and reversible. The action on these can go pretty low so there may be quite a bit of loosening you can do.

I have tried several other string types (Rotos and TI flats) to see what they would do, but the string to string balance became pretty uneven. My guess is that Rob has these pretty well dialed in for the LaBellas. The TI flats were very interesting, but I think Rob would have to tweak the bridge to work well with them.

Ultimately, you will need to get your touch adjusted more than the instrument. Maybe try using more fingertip on the right hand and less meat. I find that to really get the sound I am after, I need to turn up a bit and use just my fingertips. YMMV or course.

[Rumblin' Man]

I'd shim the neck first according to 202dy's instructions for step 7, "Decrease the neck angle"

However, for years I've made shims using layers of 3/8 inch wide masking tape layered on the neck heel in a stairstep fashion with steps of 4, 3, 2, 1 layers to start. To decrease the neck angle the thicker layers would go at the headstock end of the neck heel.

Using the layers in this way allows me to fine tune the angle by adding or removing layers of tape. The stairstep provides a "wedge" to support the neck to guard against "tongue flip"

So far it hasn't effected the tone of any bass I've shimmed in this way.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Just by way of small update - the neck adjustments that resulted from the truss rod being loosened have helped a bit, and I'm working on finding a consistent touch for this instrument. I'm also (re)discovering that when amplifying a BG, many of my "rules" for amplifying a DB have to go out the window. Fun times!

Slightly off topic, does anybody know what the tiny screw adjustment accessible through the back plate that houses the electronics on the Mouse does?

[Joe Smithberger]

That's a treble cut adjustment. Mine's always all the way CCW.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Joe Smithberger

That's a treble cut adjustment. Mine's always all the way CCW.

Thank you. Mine must have been cranked wide open...much better now.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

OK, a couple of items:

1) The allen wrench I've been trying to use to tweak the truss rod is too long on the short end of the bend, and won't really grip the truss rod well enough to get any force. Does anyone know where I can get one made for tight spaces? I think it's a 5mm wrench.

2) I've been in touch with Rob Allen about the bridge, and he recommends letting him do the work in cutting the new saddle, as he says the piezo elements are tricky. However, the price quoted was $60-80 plus return shipping, which he quoted at $45. I'm sure he'd do the best possible job, but when i figure in the shipping to CA from here into all of this, I'm looking at $120-$160 just for a new saddle, which seems a bit steep. We've got a few good guitar techs around these parts. Would you guys recommend letting the locals give it a shot before spending all of the $$$ and shipping across the country? Inquiring minds and all...

[richnota]

If you must go local, i'd try to get a tech with experience doing acoustic guitars...a lot more in common with the RA.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

OK, a couple of items:

1) The allen wrench I've been trying to use to tweak the truss rod is too long on the short end of the bend, and won't really grip the truss rod well enough to get any force. Does anyone know where I can get one made for tight spaces? I think it's a 5mm wrench.

2) I've been in touch with Rob Allen about the bridge, and he recommends letting him do the work in cutting the new saddle, as he says the piezo elements are tricky. However, the price quoted was $60-80 plus return shipping, which he quoted at $45. I'm sure he'd do the best possible job, but when i figure in the shipping to CA from here into all of this, I'm looking at $120-$160 just for a new saddle, which seems a bit steep. We've got a few good guitar techs around these parts. Would you guys recommend letting the locals give it a shot before spending all of the $$$ and shipping across the country? Inquiring minds and all...

Truss rod wrenches are easy to shorten if you have the tools. They are made of hard steel. They will take the teeth off a hack saw or a good file in short order. A Dremel tool with a cut off wheel can be used to make the initial cut. The edges can be softened on a grinder. In the absence of a stationary grinder, a stone can also be chucked up in the Dremel.

A good tech can handle making a new saddle. The important issues for most piezo pickups are making sure that both the bottom of the saddle and the bottom of the saddle slot in the bridge are dead flat. The idea is to get maximum contact between the saddle and the pickup and have the pickup completely supported. Most piezo pickups are not bendable. A well equipped shop should have the proper jigs and tooling to manufacture this part.