Two quick intonation fixes for low strings (wire-cutter content).

[MarkA]

I did a quick search, but didn't see anything specifically on this. I'm sure I'm not the first to do it, though.

[Disclaimer: I'm not a setup expert, but this worked for me.]

I was setting the intonation on an Ibanez SR 506 six string. The E and B strings have no taper at the bridge end.

I ran out of room adjusting the lowest two strings -- the intonation was close, but not quite on, and the springs were compressed completely. (Yes, I know that sliding the saddles back/away from the neck will make the string longer and lower the pitch at the 12th fret.) There was still room for adjustment on the bridge itself, though, both on the screw and in the little channels the saddle-height adjustment set-screws sit in. So, I simply removed the springs, cut them in half with wire cutters, and reinstalled. Here's the result (note the shorter length of the B and E springs - for reference the uncut "A" spring is almost fully compressed):


This gave me all the room I needed to back the saddles up. However, as I did so, checking the intonation as I went, I noticed something funny. I was backing the saddle up (and retuning the B string each time), but no longer getting a corresponding adjustment in the 12th fret pitch. It stayed the same -- might even have started to creep back up a bit. I took a look at the bridge from the side, and noticed that, as far back as the B saddle was, the angle of the string over the saddle was pretty steep:


With the B string as thick as it is, it didn't make a clean "angle" over the saddle, but, rather, a gradual bend. Enough so that it affected action as well as intonation (didn't get a pic of that or the "bend," sorry). By chance, a week earlier, I'd seen a video of Gary Willis on Youtube, talking about how he tweaked the setup of a new bass, and one thing he did was push the low strings down at the edge of the saddle with his thumb. I tried this on the B, which gave a cleaner "angle" over the saddle, and, voila, I was able to adjust the intonation, no problem (though I still needed the shorter spring to get the saddle in the proper spot).

The springs are nothing special, by the way, and if you screw up, replacements should be available at any decent hardware store. If you're nervous, you could buy spare springs first and cut those down.

Tapered B and E strings might avoid the need for either of these tricks, but there they are.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by MarkA

With the B string as thick as it is, it didn't make a clean "angle" over the saddle, but, rather, a gradual bend. Enough so that it affected action as well as intonation (didn't get a pic of that or the "bend," sorry). By chance, a week earlier, I'd seen a video of Gary Willis on Youtube, talking about how he tweaked the setup of a new bass, and one thing he did was push the low strings down at the edge of the saddle with his thumb. I tried this on the B, which gave a cleaner "angle" over the saddle, and, voila, I was able to adjust the intonation, no problem (though I still needed the shorter spring to get the saddle in the proper spot).

I'm glad it worked out for you but I have to say, the above technique to set the string break angle, that's the first thing you do to a new set of strings (every one of them) after bringing them up to tuned pitch, before making any kind of intonation/action adjustment.

[Turnaround]

Pressing with your thumb at the saddle is pretty well essential on thicker strings to ensure a clean break angle at the bridge. It's not a trick, it's essential. But don't forget to do the same thing at the nut!

[MarkA]

Originally Posted by Skitch it!

I'm glad it worked out for you but I have to say, the above technique to set the string break angle, that's the first thing you do to a new set of strings (every one of them) after bringing them up to tuned pitch, before making any kind of intonation/action adjustment.

Well, better to learn late than never, I guess. I did do the same to the E and A strings, but didn't see a need with the thinner strings. Makes sense that this would help, though. B-strings are new to me, and I never seemed to run into any trouble on my 4-bangers, despite not doing anything to set the break angle. I'll be changing strings on my Fender soon -- will try this with it as well as pay attention to the effects. Thank you for the heads-up.

The strings weren't new, btw, but the cruddy old ones on the bass when I recently acquired it. It's getting a new set, but the intonation was WAY off (along with the action) and I wanted to adjust it.

Do I at least get points for the spring thing?

[MarkA]

Originally Posted by Turnaround

Pressing with your thumb at the saddle is pretty well essential on thicker strings to ensure a clean break angle at the bridge. It's not a trick, it's essential. But don't forget to do the same thing at the nut!

Didn't occur to me to do it at the nut! Will look there as well. Does setting the break angle in this way compromise the durability/integrity of the strings in any way? If they can take being wrapped around a tuning post, I guess the stress of setting the angle should be no big deal.

[walterw]

good on you to catch both details, the spring-snipping thing and the break-angle seating thing!

yes, check that with all the strings, and at all contact points, so the nut and where the strings leaves the tuning keys.

you want dead-straight string at all points.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by MarkA

Well, better to learn late than never, I guess. I did do the same to the E and A strings, but didn't see a need with the thinner strings. Makes sense that this would help, though. B-strings are new to me, and I never seemed to run into any trouble on my 4-bangers, despite not doing anything to set the break angle. I'll be changing strings on my Fender soon -- will try this with it as well as pay attention to the effects. Thank you for the heads-up.

The strings weren't new, btw, but the cruddy old ones on the bass when I recently acquired it. It's getting a new set, but the intonation was WAY off (along with the action) and I wanted to adjust it.

Do I at least get points for the spring thing?

It's quite inventive for sure

Setting the break angle was something taught to me years back at a guitar clinic with the in-house guy who set-up guitars/basses for Chandlers in London, something I'd never considered before it was explained properly. If you don't set the break angle you get that curvature, which affects the action and intonation set-up a lot.

[MarkA]

Originally Posted by walterw

...yes, check that with all the strings, and at all contact points, so the nut and where the strings leaves the tuning keys.

you want dead-straight string at all points.

I've noticed the "bend" at the tuning keys on the thick strings of some basses, and wondered if it might cause some binding as the string goes through the nut, but it wouldn't have occurred to me to "straighten" here as well.

Again, this all makes sense to me now, but I want to be sure I won't be compromising the integrity of the string (i.e. making it any more likely to break) by doing this. It should be okay in this regard, right?

[walterw]

yep, straighten it out everywhere.

(you'll get better tuning stability, too. most string "stretching" is just pulling the string to take out these curves.)

[staindbass]

yes, i have been cutting and removing springs for years, and push the string down by the bridge, and also straighten it behind the nut to the tuning peg, tuning stays more consistent. once i had to file off some of the back of the saddle to get it to go back far enough! tuning down needs a longer length to intonate.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by MarkA

I've noticed the "bend" at the tuning keys on the thick strings of some basses, and wondered if it might cause some binding as the string goes through the nut, but it wouldn't have occurred to me to "straighten" here as well.

Again, this all makes sense to me now, but I want to be sure I won't be compromising the integrity of the string (i.e. making it any more likely to break) by doing this. It should be okay in this regard, right?

You shouldn't have any problem at all after setting the break angles, the first thing you will notice is the action drops by around 2mm as soon as you set them, with enough thumb pressure just in front of the bridge. As far as compromising the integrity, for me it's never happened in 20 years of using a lot of different set's and gauges. Make sure you get around 3 -4 winding's on your tuning capstans too, that creates a better break angle at the nut and stops vibration feeding back and sounding on the head-stock side of things, I don't set that with the thumb, just enough winding's to create a good down angle/down-force at the nut.

I like the thinking in your solutions fair play, but you will notice quite a big difference setting that angle first before you start adjustment.

[MarkA]

Thank you all! I posted thinking to help people out with a clever "trick" or two, and ended up learning some useful things myself, which I'll put into practice forthwith.

ADDENDUM: To be clear, Skitch It, the setup guy at the clinic you mentioned suggested you do the same with skinny guitar strings as well? I imagine the effect is less pronounced than on bass, but that the same principles apply.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by MarkA

Thank you all! I posted thinking to help people out with a clever "trick" or two, and ended up learning some useful things myself, which I'll put into practice forthwith.

ADDENDUM: To be clear, Skitch It, the setup guy at the clinic you mentioned suggested you do the same with skinny guitar strings as well? I imagine the effect is less pronounced than on bass, but that the same principles apply.

Yes the same deal, the curvature of a new 'unset' string forces it up at the back of the saddle so it contacts at a slighter back-point, curving over, rather than sitting directly into the saddle slot at it's proper seated height. You'll notice the action drop immediately when you try it, it will be far more stable for adjustments. Some basses take quite a bit to get intonated properly but setting that angle is the way forward with that first off.

[MarkA]

Thanks for clarifying and expanding upon that, Skitch It. Again, thanks to all who added useful info to the thread.
-Mark

P.S. Off topic, but...

...pretty wild pic! Your cat?

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by MarkA

Thanks for clarifying and expanding upon that, Skitch It. Again, thanks to all who added useful info to the thread.
-Mark

P.S. Off topic, but...

...pretty wild pic! Your cat?

No problem at all, as for the cat it's just a pic from 'tinternet, I liked the 'ahh, what's all this going on in here then?' expression, for some reason