Weak E string on MIM Jazz standard?

Scott01 · #1 07-31-2008, 01:52 AM

Ok, So I'll try to keep it short:

I have a fender Jazz standard (4 string), I bought it used. I previously had a precision bass (cheaper and of lower quality than MIM), and I originally thought that maybe (being my first jazz bass) that it is just the nature of the bass to be weaker on the low end.

Then after putting up with a really hollow sounding low E string, I've noticed that even kids playing cheaper basses (brands I've never heard) even have a chunkier low end, and now this really ***** me. I've been watching and listening to all sorts of basses from songs/videos and I'm really becoming envious of that tight low end sound.

Anyway, I've now tried all sorts of things to get the low E to sound more solid;
- I've tried different strings (DR Lo-riders, hex core, steel roundwound) apparently the tighter tension helped with "depth",
- I've replaced the stock pickups (with Seymour Duncan basslines quarter pounders) apparently they "really open up the range of your bass, both highs and lows", and;
- I even tried replacing the nut with a brass one, thinking that the stock plastic nut maybe robbing some of the tone.

After trying all of the above, I've barely noticed any improvement in tone (well actually the strings made a great improvement on clarity, but didnt do **** for the low end problem).

Now I'm getting to the point of desperation, I'm beginning to blame everything for this problem. I'm now targeting my amplifier as the culprit, as when I tried playing through my head phones, it sounds a little better.

The amp is a fender rumble 100 (with the single 15" cone), I know its still a practice amp, and I'm not trying to push it hard at all. I'm not sure if this is the problem or what?

Could I even be somehow losing some signal through my instrument cable??

I've tried EQ'ing to regain some low end, but it just makes it sound really artificial and boomy at best. I've also reset and adjusted my pickup heights about 4 times now, and It doesnt seem to help either.

What else can i do??? I am on the edge of selling everything bass-related I have and starting an absolute fresh setup with new gear, but I really cannot afford it.

Scott01 · #2 07-31-2008, 01:55 AM

Oh, forgot to mention, atm I have fender pure nickel strings on at the moment, .45 -.105 and I've also setup with the parallel/series switching for the J-pups, and even that doesnt improve the low end, just makes it really boomy and less clarity on the high end.

Evan_S._Brown · #3 07-31-2008, 01:58 AM

hmmmm.... what about a heavier gauge?
i'd go like a 115

you may have already tried this though....

gahpg · #4 07-31-2008, 06:15 AM

Is the low end there when you play acoustic or does it still sound bad to you? If it sounds bad acoustic there ain't much that can be done.

Could be something to do with your bridge, I.E. maybe the silk wrap is sitting on the saddle?

Could also be something wrong with the electronics...maybe the tone pot is bad? the MIM's do have cheap electronics.

Have you brought it to a shop for a pro setup? Or have you been setting it up yourself?

if you want some real low end try flats.

1954bassman · #5 07-31-2008, 06:42 AM

I recently bought, and immeadiately sold a Asian Fender Squire 5 string. The "B" string on it sounded completely different than the other 4 strings. You might even call it's sound 'hollow'.

If you try a different amp, cord, and room, and it still sounds hollow, trade it off.

Also, IMO, a brass nut would not add bottom thickness, nor do I like the Duncan pickups for deep sound.

It is likely your got yourself a dud Mexican Fender, which would not surprise me at all.

Mark

Scott01 · #6 07-31-2008, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gahpg

Is the low end there when you play acoustic or does it still sound bad to you? If it sounds bad acoustic there ain't much that can be done.

Could be something to do with your bridge, I.E. maybe the silk wrap is sitting on the saddle?

Could also be something wrong with the electronics...maybe the tone pot is bad? the MIM's do have cheap electronics.

Have you brought it to a shop for a pro setup? Or have you been setting it up yourself?

if you want some real low end try flats.

The strings seem to sound alright acousticly, though I can't really tell if its got the low end oomph that I'm after unless its amped

But yea, acousticly, the strings sound fairly even. Also, the string silks are clear of the nut and bridge saddles by about 10mm.

I also set it up myself (I know you're probably rolling your eyes right now) but I spent a few hours doing so very carefully step by step. I did the same for my other bass and the setup on that one is quite playable and problem free.

I have tried the local store for a setup, and I had to leave my bass over night, then ended up returning the same day because the guitarist setting it up had the action way way too low (and I already like low action, but this was unplayable by any means). He also charged $30. Not going to try him again. I do wish I knew some pro bassists that could play my bass and give me a second opinion tho

I would like to redo the entire circuitry for this bass, like you said it could be a dodgy tone pot or something, but - I'd be mighty pissed to spend all the time rebuilding/soldering the circuitry to find out its unchanged (or worse than before).
I dont know what else could possible be responsible for the problem. I've heard others saying they put these pickups/strings on MIA fenders and noticed an improvement/upgrade on their tone - but from where I'm at now, I can't see why the hell anyone would chop up a decent fender to get this lame sound

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1954bassman

I recently bought, and immeadiately sold a Asian Fender Squire 5 string. The "B" string on it sounded completely different than the other 4 strings. You might even call it's sound 'hollow'.

If you try a different amp, cord, and room, and it still sounds hollow, trade it off.

Also, IMO, a brass nut would not add bottom thickness, nor do I like the Duncan pickups for deep sound.

It is likely your got yourself a dud Mexican Fender, which would not surprise me at all.
Mark

Yea, I also have an Indonesian Squier P/J, and it sounds fairly hollow, but atm it almost sounds as good if not better than the MIM Jazz - which to me, seems somehow very wrong

I know there must be something I've overlooked.
Also, I didnt get the brass nut to improve bottom thickness as such, I just thought that maybe the plastic nut was kind of muffling the sound somehow. I figured with a brass nut, the open string should sound like a fretted note, and be a little more consistent. Wasn't the case though

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan_S._Brown

hmmmm.... what about a heavier gauge?
i'd go like a 115

you may have already tried this though....

I will be trying that next, though I'm not sure what kind of strings yet, I want to try nickel plated steel rounds in a heavy gauge, steels seemed too bright and the nickels I think arent articulate/defined enough. I think flats might not be my thing either (i've never tried flats), as I'm trying to use this bass for slap/finger/pick and not sure if flats would work out

I understand that heavier gauges will be tighter and improve tone, but with that said, I've still seen/heard others playing regular (and even lighter) gauge strings, with a very punchy and powerful low end.

I'm thinking at the moment that maybe I need a string tree over the E and A strings, the A string barely has a angle over the nut (I will try new strings and leave extra windings on the peg first), maybe an additional string tree might help?? I do get a bit of buzz/rattle from the E and A if I dig in slightly too hard - could the down pressure on the nut be the problem??

lug · #7 07-31-2008, 07:42 AM

Do you get a lot more bottom isolating either pup over running them both together? If so, you probably have the pups out of phase. This effects tho lower frequencies more than the upper, i.e. you would notice it more on the lower notes. If this is the case, you simply have to reverse the leads on one of the pups.

Scott01 · #8 07-31-2008, 07:53 AM

Mmm I know what you mean, but in that case it would sound really really thin, yea?

I get an even amount with running either pickup single in parallel, and even when running both in parallel or series.

Scott01 · #9 07-31-2008, 07:55 AM

actually it might be worth mentioning that I used this wiring diagram that I found via google, I'm not sure if it's correct or not, I simply wired it as shown (nonetheless I had the weak bottom end problem before I even began modifying anything on the bass.

lug · #10 07-31-2008, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott01

Mmm I know what you mean, but in that case it would sound really really thin, yea?

I get an even amount with running either pickup single in parallel, and even when running both in parallel or series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott01

actually it might be worth mentioning that I used this wiring diagram that I found via google, I'm not sure if it's correct or not, I simply wired it as shown (nonetheless I had the weak bottom end problem before I even began modifying anything on the bass.

I was assuming it was possibly shipped wired wrong (rare, but I've heard of it happening). Here is an example of an out of phase vs an in phase setup on a T-40...

http://www.box.net/shared/static/kr8rly6dgy.wav

(goes back in phase at 30 sec)

Scott01 · #11 08-01-2008, 06:39 AM

Hmm, nope. I'm quite certain they are wired in phase properly.

I'm lost as to what is wrong. Maybe it is my amp or something, or the duncans are seriously just overrated, and weak like the stock p-ups.

I will order a set of heavy nickel-plated steel rounds from somewhere and give that a whirl. Hopefully I won't get awfully disappointed once again.

Edit: Just ordered some Rotosound swing bass heavies .050-.110, I have no idea what they're like

fakiekid · #12 08-03-2008, 05:40 PM

i sell duncans and will say the QP's do not sound hollow at all! the quarter pounders should be mid swept and hot, ready to kick out some serious tone.

gauge won't do sweet F A imo

what is the pickup height (from the strings) on your low side.

fender recommend 2.8mm on the bass side and 2mm on the treble.

if in doubt check this

http://www.fender.com/support/basses.php

Scott01 · #13 08-04-2008, 01:43 AM

hmm, its from the pole pieces yea? The QP's that I got sent have open covers, but the poles dont actually poke through them, they are dead flat level with the winding casing, so when I mounted them in the pickup cases and bolted them in, I cant get a really accurate measurement (even with calipers).

Atm they are around 4mm from the strings, is this that far out to cause such a problem?

Scott01 · #14 08-04-2008, 02:18 AM

I just noticed that the pole pieces have a different string spacing to my bass, and mounted in the stock positiong the E string is over one of the pole pieces and completely misses the outer pole.

Is this a problem?? (Note that each of the other strings are somewhat inbetween their poles, just that the camera is situated directly above the E string that they all appear out of line)

Also, here are the recessed pole pieces:

I'm also concerned about the break-angle over the nut, It looks as though there is barely any angle at all

fakiekid · #15 08-04-2008, 05:23 AM

no scott, thats not a problem with the quarter pounder pole pieces, fender recommends 2.8mm from the magnet to the low e and .2mm down to the g string, making it 2.0mm for your bridge pickup reverse these measurements.

try getting yourself a set of feeler gauges.

your pickup covers are fine.

Scott01 · #16 08-04-2008, 05:58 PM

I just checked and adjusted the pickup height with automotive feeler guages. I actually had to lower the bass side and raise the treble side a bit.

It hasn't done anything in terms of sound IMO. I guess it must be the original pots that are crap

spaz21387 · #17 08-04-2008, 06:06 PM

Notice how your e string doesnt sit in the middle of the poles on the pickup? That could be a problem too. I would recomend a new bridge. It might even fix your problem.

therex · #18 08-04-2008, 06:23 PM

sell it and get a squier VM

just kiding
reaplace the pots and cap and jack
or it could be the cable sucking the low signals

Flizzy21 · #19 08-04-2008, 06:34 PM

i remember i used to have a similar problem with my MIM jazz. I kinda just gave up and accepted it for a while. since those days i have switched to DR Hi-beams and swapped the stock bridge out for a BAII. Now i have no problems at all and it sounds perfect all around to me.

My E doesnt sit right between my pickup poles and it sounds just as good as my other strings do, idk though cause mine isnt as far off as yours is but i dont really think thats the problem your hearing.

Thundar · #20 08-04-2008, 07:16 PM

I really think its the bridge...man I have had this happen to me on so many basses...most recently I decided to "upgrade" my Squier Precision Special and ditch the stock bridge. I put a Gotoh 201 on it...and immediately after I put the Gotoh on, I had a dead, hollow E string....I put the stock Squier bridge back on....yep...everything was back to normal. (Memo to self....if it aint broke...) Not saying there is anything wrong with Gotoh bridges or your bridge...but it seems that sometimes the bridge spacing doesnt match up with the pickup spacing, or something. I have in the past also solved the same problem with putting a new bridge on....Ive had 3 or 4 basses with this problem...all Fenders & G&L...it is sooooooooo frustrating, I know exactly what youre going through. Hope this helps.