At what point does low action begin to affect sustain?

[MistaMarko]

I've been experimenting with action lately just to try something new. Went for one of those ultra-low setups, but notice that the sustain just begins to suffer after awhile, especially on certain frets. I'm also noticing that the G string (on my 7-string) buzzes HORRIBLY around frets 9-12.

I relieved the neck a tad, and it didn't do much.

My main question here is, even if you hear a LITTLE bit of fret buzz, it seems like it would be affecting your sustain a little, simply due to something coming in contact with the vibrating string.

How do you low-action players remedy, deal with, or avoid this?

[dmusic148]

I hear ya. I run fairly low action, which does result in some buzz/sustain loss here and there. But I don't consider it an issue, at all. How much sustain do you really need?

[kb9wyz]

When you get buzz. Every time the string whacks a fret it loses some energy. A little buzz isn't a problem, though. If you can hear the buzz through the amp when you play, then it might be too much. Personal preference really. Most low action players I have seen that play with audible buzzing are metal players and don't specifically care about sustain, so I can't answer the other part. They just like the mean sound of lots of fret whacking.

[bongomania]

To expand on that just a bit, there is no loss of sustain unless the string is hitting frets. There is no way the string height by itself can affect sustain.

[sevenyearsdown]

If you are getting buzzes then you either have a setup problem, or a neck/fret wire issue.

Low action does not cause buzzing, unless you don't know how to setup a bass and just randomly drop all the saddles down as low as they go. There are several variables that will determine how low you can go without buzzing (string type, tension, player's touch, proper truss rod adjusting).

A well built instrument should be easy to setup with low action and no buzzing, IME. And like bongo said, this isn't going to affect sustain all that much.

[MistaMarko]

Originally Posted by sevenyearsdown

If you are getting buzzes then you either have a setup problem, or a neck/fret wire issue.

Low action does not cause buzzing, unless you don't know how to setup a bass and just randomly drop all the saddles down as low as they go. There are several variables that will determine how low you can go without buzzing (string type, tension, player's touch, proper truss rod adjusting).

A well built instrument should be easy to setup with low action and no buzzing, IME. And like bongo said, this isn't going to affect sustain all that much.

Hmm. I definitely don't drop the saddles, but I also don't do TOO much truss adjustment, just very minimal. How would you recommend I do this?

[CapnSev]

Originally Posted by MistaMarko

How do you low-action players remedy, deal with, or avoid this?

Play with a lighter touch and let the amp do my work. As Bongo said; really there's no effect to sustain as long as the strings aren't banging against the frets all the time.

[Meatrus]

Originally Posted by bongomania

There is no way the string height by itself can affect sustain.

I have noticed differently. A bass with higher action has more tension in the string, which can affect the tone from the string.

[Benjamin Strange]

Originally Posted by sevenyearsdown

If you are getting buzzes then you either have a setup problem, or a neck/fret wire issue.

Low action does not cause buzzing, unless you don't know how to setup a bass and just randomly drop all the saddles down as low as they go. There are several variables that will determine how low you can go without buzzing (string type, tension, player's touch, proper truss rod adjusting).

A well built instrument should be easy to setup with low action and no buzzing, IME. And like bongo said, this isn't going to affect sustain all that much.

True. If your frets aren't perfectly level (even brand new ones generally need fretwork) you're going to have buzzing in various parts of the neck.

I wouldn't worry about sustain so much as I would worry about tone. Some buzzing is ok for me - some people can't stand it. Talk of sustain is a bit of a misnomer on a plucked instrument like guitar or bass - how long do the notes have to be, really?

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by Meatrus

I have noticed differently. A bass with higher action has more tension in the string, ....

?

[scottbass]

Originally Posted by Meatrus

A bass with higher action has more tension in the string, which can affect the tone from the string.

Incorrect. On two similar basses, if the distance from the nut to the bridge saddle is the same, the string make, model and gauge are the same, and the tuning is the same, the string tension BY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS is the same. The height of the strings above the frets (or fretboard) has nothing to do with this equation.

[sevenyearsdown]

Originally Posted by MistaMarko

Hmm. I definitely don't drop the saddles, but I also don't do TOO much truss adjustment, just very minimal. How would you recommend I do this?

First - I don't mean any offense by this statement, but given your responses here it sounds like you could use some instruction in setups. There are stickies in these forums that will give directions on how to properly setup an instrument.

As far as truss rod adjustments go, I adjust them as needed. There really is no max or min to it. It needs what it needs. I guess what I'm trying to say is that in my experience, all basses are different. In general though, once I have adjusted the truss rod, - I don't touch it again unless I'm changing string type, tunings, etc. I've been doing it for so long that I just eye-ball mine at this point. I'm guessing most of the experienced guys around here do the same on thier own instruments.

On my main bass I have both very low action, and NO buzzing.

The truss rod is used to set neck relief though, while string height/action is raised or lowered using the saddles. They work hand and hand, but I don't think of my action in terms of adjusting the truss rod. Once it is properly set, I leave it alone.

[Meatrus]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

?

Which bit? Higher action = more tension, more tension can affect how hard you need to hit the string.

[Meatrus]

Originally Posted by scottbass

Incorrect. On two similar basses, if the distance from the nut to the bridge saddle is the same, the string make, model and gauge are the same, and the tuning is the same, the string tension BY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS is the same. The height of the strings above the frets (or fretboard) has nothing to do with this equation.

I'm confused, (and I'm sure wrong) but if I heighten a string I notice (at least I thought I did) it feel more tense, and yes I have tuned back.

I thought this was because of the angle put into the string at the bridge, ie not as straight with high action, I think that makes sense and stays within the laws of physics.

[Rickett Customs]

key to very low action:

Small frets (short frets), a really good leveling job (the cons to this is only being able to limited leveling and refretting will happen sooner).

light gauge strings.

I give mine a *little* buzz (not much though), if the action still isn't low enough, time to start from square 1 and take the truss rod tension completely off. Re-adjust it, check the level of the frets, start with a radius block (that matches the radius, of course) with 320 grit sandpaper, to initially level the frets, then go back and re-crown them, then clean them up. Keep in mind this is done on a neck through, a bolt on neck can be shimmed a bit in the neck pocket additionally.

[Benjamin Strange]

Originally Posted by scottbass

Incorrect. On two similar basses, if the distance from the nut to the bridge saddle is the same, the string make, model and gauge are the same, and the tuning is the same, the string tension BY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS is the same. The height of the strings above the frets (or fretboard) has nothing to do with this equation.

Originally Posted by Meatrus

I'm confused, (and I'm sure wrong) but if I heighten a string I notice (at least I thought I did) it feel more tense, and yes I have tuned back.

I thought this was because of the angle put into the string at the bridge, ie not as straight.

Well, yes and no. Higher action will not affect string tension - on OPEN notes. However, as soon as you fret a string, you are in effect bending the string, increasing tension. For really high actions, you are bending the string even more, thus increasing tension even more than a low action bass. Of course, with action really high, you also run into all sorts of other issues, the biggest of which being intonation problems.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by Meatrus

I thought this was because of the angle put into the string at the bridge, ie not as straight.

That actually has nothing at all to do with it. It's partly due to the fact that when you have to push the string further to fret a note, the tension does rise a bit- you are stretching the string slightly to hit a fret, but in reality the difference here, low vs high action, is hardly measurable. It's mostly perception- pushing the string a greater distance seems harder, and it is but not much, on the scales we're talking about.
On double bass- different story. The differences can be much larger, low vs high action.

[Pilgrim]

One thing not mentioned yet - if you drop the strings closer to the fretboard and don't adjust the pickups, you may be moving the strings a bit too close to the pickups. I have heard (have not witnessed this personally) that this can result in the magnetic fields of the pickups damping the action of the strings slightly. That might affect the sustain.

Any comments from those who've BTDT?

[sevenyearsdown]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

One thing not mentioned yet - if you drop the strings closer to the fretboard and don't adjust the pickups, you may be moving the strings a bit too close to the pickups. I have heard (have not witnessed this personally) that this can result in the magnetic fields of the pickups damping the action of the strings slightly. That might affect the sustain.

Any comments from those who've BTDT?

I would tend to think that the tension of the strings is strong enough to resist the force of a PUP magnet, not to mention that we are usually talking about millimeters worth of adjustment.

Having said that, I think people may just be confusing the OP even more here. I think a good lesson in setups and bass anatomy is what is in order here. Gotta crawl before you walk.

[Benjamin Strange]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

One thing not mentioned yet - if you drop the strings closer to the fretboard and don't adjust the pickups, you may be moving the strings a bit too close to the pickups. I have heard (have not witnessed this personally) that this can result in the magnetic fields of the pickups damping the action of the strings slightly. That might affect the sustain.

Any comments from those who've BTDT?

It doesn't affect sustain in any real appreciable way (really, WHO IS playing notes that long?), but it does affect intonation, and sometimes affects tone. The strings vibration is changed by the magnetic pull, throwing overtones and intonation out of whack. Any time pickup height or action is changed, intonation should be looked at and adjusted accordingly.