What's great about the 'Badass' bridge?

[boristhespider9]

Originally Posted by marc40a

Bingo.

Vintage bridges, especially in the 70s when they moved the bridge back a bit (era of the extended G string saddle screw,) were prone to side to side shifting of saddles.

The best bridge design to me, is the refined Fender bridge with the saddle tracks in the baseplate.

I have a bass with the newest post 2008 Fender bridge (I forget they call it.."hi-mass" maybe?) but I haven't played it extensively. It looks like a solid design.

The new Fender High Mass Vintage bridge is as good or better than any bridge out there. I didn't see if the OP said whether his Fender was MIA post 2008 and had this bridge. If so, there's definitely no reason whatsoever to change it. It's a great bridge and the saddle height adjustment screws now have nylon patches to prevent the saddles from moving up or down due to vibration or movement which was a common complaint with the vintage Fender bridges (and why guitar techs frequently used Loc-Tite liquid on the saddle height adjustment screws). The HMV solves this issue and of course is a beefier bridge while maintaining the traditional Fender bridge look.

Personally, I think modding a MIA Fender is lame in any respect anyway.

[cjp3044]

Originally Posted by Rockin Mike

Given the open string is tuned to concert pitch, for each half-step note above that pitch there is some string length that produces that note. Put the frets in the right spots and you have a bass that can be properly intonated.

Now, there are various opinions on exactly what frequency those notes are supposed to be, eg. "Just Temperament" versus "Equal Temperament", but if you pick one, it's possible to have a neck with the frets in the right places.

That's all true in theory. In practice, there are a lot of factors that affect the exact pitch that comes from a fretted string.
- how hard you push down on the string can increase the tension a bit since you're basically pulling it down over the fret
- how straight your fretting finger is; if not perpendicular to the fretboard it can bend the string up or down a little
- the nature of a vibrating string is to start off a little bit sharp and then settle down into pitch
- different types and brands of strings have different harmonics which can suggest to the ear a different pitch than the fundamental of the vibrating string itself. This is especially true of old roundwound strings. They can get so wolfy it's really hard to tune them. It's also especially true of lower notes, like the low B. The fundamental is so low people can't really hear it, so what they perceive is actually a note suggested by the string's overtones.

So just set the 12th fret intonation properly and tune the bass with a decent tuner and the job will get done for all real-world intents and purposes.

In my opinion, in a band situation the most productive thing we can do to sound "in tune" is to all use the same tuner. If my tuner is a little out of sync with the guitarist's tuner, then the band is going to sound a little sour.

Exactly. I was going to clarify my earlier post with essentially this same information. And it's not physics really more closer to geometry in the science department. Having a guitar or bass intonated exactly at pitch across the spectrum would not necessarily be a desired effect. For instance - tune a piano with every key at the correct pitch for that note instead of starting at middle C and tuning every octave relative to that - then play said piano. I bet you will never want to hear that godawful noise again. But, it is possible on *some* guitars and basses to have every note on every fret be in tune, other factors that affect this are whether the fret spacing is mathematically correct, are the frets all of equal height, is the nut slotted perfectly, how straight is the neck (theoretically you would have to have a perfectly straight neck however most players prefer at least a little relief), are the strings tension equal up and down the neck (strings will lose their "rigidity" in some places making the tension somewhat different at different spots on the neck).

So this is off-topic, but (for those that don't know and assuming most of you already do know this so ignore me) when setting up a bass, this is what I do. 1st, I set the action to approximately where I think I want it (most people don't touch the action until after they adjust the truss rod - I do an approximation of action first). 2nd, I adjust the truss rod. Personally, I like a very little amount of relief - almost perfectly straight but not quite - there are measurements you can make and such, and I do usually end up using feeler guages, but I don't rely on them, just use them for ballpark. I also use my eyes and my ears and my hands to make the bass feel right for me. Then I let the bass rest for at least a day to let the neck settle. 3rd I re-adjust the action - this time to exactly where I want it. Last comes setting the intonation. Most people's idea of setting the intonation is having the bass be in-tune with the open string and at the twelfth fret - there is nothing wrong with that, but it's not very thorough. I start with that. Then I check the first, second and third fret - that will tell you if the nut is slotted correctly (or on an adjustable nut whether the height is correct) - make adjustments to the nut if necessary, re-tune and re-check at the twelfth fret. Then re-check frets 1, 2 and 3 again. If all is good there, I go to the fifth, ninth and fifteenth fret, making little adjustments if necessary as I go - the more relief you have in your neck, the more these notes will be slightly off, especially above the twelfth fret - on a 2 octave bass I also check the 24th fret. Many times the ninth and fifteenth will be sooo close to being in tune (a half cent or so) that no further adjustment is necessary. Sometimes, in order to be closer at some of the other points, you may need to come slightly off exact pitch at the twelfth fret. If your neck is relatively straight and the instruments geometry is very good, sometimes you can actually get the bass to be in tune on every note - the goal is to make it as close as possible along the entire fingerboard - it takes time and patience, but the bottom line, unless you can hire a personal tech that knows exactly how YOU like your bass set up, really only YOU can make it perfect for you. And perfect for you may not be perfect for me. I play fingerstyle and prefer pretty low action, pick players typically want higher action (to avoid fret slap) - it's all preference. And remember, changing the guage of strings you use will affect neck relief and intonation, so if you change guages, you will need to redo your setup, also, temperature and humidity changes can make a difference - it's a good idea to check your setup from time to time anyway.

OK, sorry to the OP - this was off topic. But on topic, when it comes to the bridge, that's a decision you have to make for yourself. BA bridges are not the only alternates out there (they are what I use on my Js, but that's because they are cheap and easy to install). Babicz, Hipshot, Schaller, etc all make high quality hi-mass bridges, so those are others you could look into/try, but if you are happy with the stock bridge, there is no reason to change it. For me, it's a good upgrade on my Js, well worth it. Didn't work out so well on the P I had. All of my other basses have stock bridges (Warwick, Ibanez, Ken Smith) and I have no desire to change them.

Another quick off-topic note -- my Geddy Lee Jazz came stock with a BAII (BTW - I know Fender was putting BAII bridges stock on several basses for a while - the highway 1 series comes to mind). I love Geddy, but I'm not trying to imitate his sound, I happen to love the way that bass feels, but I didn't like the way it sounded and although the neck was fast feeling, a little perspiration on my left hand and it would start to feel a little sticky. I lightly sanded the back of the neck to remove a layer of varnish, I replaced the tuners with Hipshot tuners and an X-Tender key, and I replaced the pickups with EMGs (they were free to me - I may or may not have chosen something different if I had to pay for them), I also changed the tone stack so it's V/B/bass-treble stack, and I managed to rout the cavity just slightly deeper so the battery goes under the pots - nice that I didn't have to route for a battery box. I also removed the tuxedo looking white pickguard and filled the holes so the bass is all black - that's my most "customized" bass and my goto instrument for hard rock gigs.

[cjp3044]

Originally Posted by mattbass6945

i get the vintage vibe, but it seemed to me from a previous post, that it was implied that the two saddle was somehow better than the four saddle. that's all good if it works for you, but i don't see how it would be fundamentally better.maybe i misunderstood.

i'm with the guy who said it earlier, (i'm too lazy to look up previous post) if your bridge works fine, leave it. if you want something different, change it.

It's preference on the saddle issue. Personally, I wouldn't leave a 2 saddle bridge on an instrument (unless it was a very valuable vintage instrument) - just not enough control, but then again, there are guys that prefer it. It's neither right nor wrong. Just different.

[tbplayer59]

I personally don't put a lot of stock in what's "better," but I will say I believe that bridges do make a difference in an instrument's sound. For a time, I had replaced the stock bridge on my 76 P with a Wilkinson with adjustable string positions. You could change the distance between strings by sliding the string anchor laterally and then locking it down with an allen screw. It was made of aluminum. Carvin featured these on their basses about 15 years ago. I don't know if it was the material or the design, but that bridge took all the "balls" out of that bass' sound. Material and design make a difference. Which ones are better? That's a matter of opinion.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by cjp3044

disagree, but YMMV

How do you get around the problem?

[tbplayer59]

On second thought, it wasn't my 76 P that had the Wilkinson. I can't remember which bass it was.... d'oh. The memory is not what it used to be.

[seang15]

Originally Posted by bobm2112

A lot of people claim they can hear a difference in tone when they switch to a high mass bridge such as the Bad Ass. I call BS on that claim. The only reason why I switched to a BA2 on 75 RI is because it looked cooler.

There will be people running around telling you that everything from paint to a bridge to pick guard material can and will effect tone. Hello McFly?? Im sorry to say this is not the truth.

I am no expert and what I say can be taken with a grain of salt. I just comment on what I personally witnessed :-)

This.

[hampulator]

As others have said...It's an over rated "theory"(IMO) Chunky bridge= more sustain;a better transfer of string vibration into the wood and then to the pick ups. I'm sure it effects the tone? But I never changed it on any of my Fenders. I figure They know what they're doing, building basses since before I was born. I would leave it,but if ya got the money and feel like doing it...

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by hampulator

As others have said...It's an over rated "theory"(IMO) Chunky bridge= more sustain;a better transfer of string vibration into the wood and then to the pick ups...

It's the other way around--LESS transfer of vibration to the wood.
And yeah, it's really subtle. Maybe unnoticeable, depends.
Sustain? Eh.......

[Stone Soup]

Originally Posted by cjp3044

disagree, but YMMV

Here's your solution.


Guess you're only slightly correct.



Fretted guitars/basses DO NOT play in perfect tune. Every fret is a compromise.

[cjp3044]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

How do you get around the problem?

I don't see it as a problem - music and musical instruments transcends both science and art. As somebody else said, some of the best sounding recordings on bass, especially stuff like Jamerson, Carol Kaye, etc were done on what some might call inferior instruments today (even though their vintage value is very high) - perfect intonation across the entire fretboard is not absolutely necessary and may not even be completely desireable - there are so many factors that go into playing, such as how light or heavy your fretting hand touch is, how much you "dig in" - those are all things that will affect the intonation of the note you happen to be playing at that particular moment.

Again, it's not a question of right or wrong, but personal preference. There's guys that have made millions of dollars playing out of tune instruments, do you really think they care how good their intonation is? I'm not a great player, fair to solid at best, I can't play like Victor or Marcus but I hold my own. But those really classic players (and Jamerson is really the one that sticks out) played with such feeling and groove, I don't think it would have mattered if his bass was out of perfect intonation - he still would have sounded awesome because he played like the bass was an extension of his soul - that's pure art and you can't argue with that. We are talking the scientific aspect of bass setup - important yes, but not as important as the player.

So it really isn't a problem, under 99% of circumstances, if you're pretty close, it's doubtful that anyone would hear any difference (unless you have Eric Johnson's ears).

[cjp3044]

Originally Posted by Stone Soup

Here's your solution.


Guess you're only slightly correct.



Fretted guitars/basses DO NOT play in perfect tune. Every fret is a compromise.

I'm considering posting a video showing just how wrong this is -- I'll try to make one this weekend -- I'll put a bass up on a bench and run it into 2 separate strobe tuners - probably an old Conn and a newer Sonic Research - it will show every note on every string in tune to within a half a cent -- will that satisfy you?

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by cjp3044

I don't see it as a problem - .

You misunderstood my intent. I don't think that the fact that fretted instruments play out-of-tune is a 'problem' either. It's just a fact, that's all.

[bigsnaketex]

Originally Posted by meatwad

Drool..



Went OT, sorry!

This bridge is simply amazing to intonate - I don't know if it sounds better or not but it looks like it's from NASA and it is so very sturdy.

With that said, I keep most of my basses stock - the way they were designed - but I've got a few that are truly Frankenbasses. It's the only way to cure gas without buying one of everything!!

[bigsnaketex]

Originally Posted by Stone Soup

Here's your solution.


Guess you're only slightly correct.



Fretted guitars/basses DO NOT play in perfect tune. Every fret is a compromise.

having refretted several dozen instruments - all I have to say is I sure am glad I never had to do one of these crazy looking things!

[bootsox]

Badass bridges in particular are not worth the price. Get a Hipshot or a Kahler if you want to spend more than $12 on the bridge

[cjp3044]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

You misunderstood my intent. I don't think that the fact that fretted instruments play out-of-tune is a 'problem' either. It's just a fact, that's all.

In most cases, that's true that fretted instruments typically cannot be in tune on every fret of every string, but that's NOT an absolute fact.

I'm not trying to be argumentative - I truly believe that most players would not spend the time to perfectly intonate their instrument even if their instrument was possible to intonate that way,and I also believe that doing so would likely make the instrument slightly less "musical" - see my tuning of a piano example earlier in the thread. Only that on some instruments it IS possible.

[Stone Soup]

Originally Posted by cjp3044

I'm considering posting a video showing just how wrong this is -- I'll try to make one this weekend -- I'll put a bass up on a bench and run it into 2 separate strobe tuners - probably an old Conn and a newer Sonic Research - it will show every note on every string in tune to within a half a cent -- will that satisfy you?

That would be great. The bent frets on that guitar are surely compensating for far more than .5 cent.

[cjp3044]

Originally Posted by Stone Soup

That would be great. The bent frets on that guitar are surely compensating for far more than .5 cent.

Right on! Gives me a project this weekend since I don't have any gigs for the first time in forever

Time permitting, I'll do the same thing with a bass that WON'T get even close to that :-) Just to show that different instrument geometry will make a tremendous difference in how accurate your intonation can be.

[Scott in Dallas]

Originally Posted by ugly_bassplayer

I call BS on this.

+30