why can a more expensive bass be setup better than a cheaper bass?

[vindy500]

what are the factors that do this, i,e why can the strings go lower on a nice am p than on a squire for example

[Cerb]

Simply put, everything is made to a tighter standard; Frets are shaped correctly, the fingerboard is shaped correctly, the nut is shaped correctly, etc. With the correct work done, one may be able to get a lesser bass to play even better than a greater one. It's just that most would rather spend the money on a good bass than spend it on a crappy one and wind up spending as much as you would for the higher end bass to fix it (run-on sentence... I know. I just had trouble wording it).

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by vindy500

what are the factors that do this, i,e why can the strings go lower on a nice am p than on a squire for example

The price of the bass is not a factor in how well it can be set up. If the frets are dressed to the same standards as a boutique bass, the neck can be made perfectly straight with the TR adjustment and all the hardware is installed in the correct positions, there is no reason for any limitation on the accuracy of the setup.

That's the advantage of being able to do your own setups. A lower price bass may not have the tone quality that an a more expensive bass has but that's entirely because higher quality pups, wood, etc. are used in the more expensive ones. It can certainly be set up to play just as well.

The exact same mechanics are found on a lower priced versus a more expensive instrument. The price of the bass doesn't figure into the laws of geometry and physics.

[Daveman2]

Originally Posted by pkr2

The price of the bass is not a factor in how well it can be set up. If the frets are dressed to the same standards as a boutique bass, the neck can be made perfectly straight with the TR adjustment and all the hardware is installed in the correct positions, there is no reason for any limitation on the accuracy of the setup.

That's the advantage of being able to do your own setups. A lower price bass may not have the tone quality that an a more expensive bass has but that's entirely because higher quality pups, wood, etc. are used in the more expensive ones. It can certainly be set up to play just as well.

The exact same mechanics are found on a lower priced versus a more expensive instrument. The price of the bass doesn't figure into the laws of geometry and physics.

But there is a definite difference on how low I can go on my $600 retail Ibanez, and how low the $6000 Alembic I played was.
Definitely there's a design difference or the more expensive basses would be a huge waste of money. I think the last 2 sentences of your post are completely wrong. Sure the strings will vibrate the same but the design of the wood metal and overall instrument are different and thus affect the playing.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by Daveman2

But there is a definite difference on how low I can go on my $600 retail Ibanez, and how low the $6000 Alembic I played was.
Definitely there's a design difference or the more expensive basses would be a huge waste of money. I think the last 2 sentences of your post are completely wrong. Sure the strings will vibrate the same but the design of the wood metal and overall instrument are different and thus affect the playing.

If there is a design difference, what is the difference? Both have the same adjustments of the exact same design.

Compare a MIA Fender and an SX. Can you show me one single design difference so far as setup or playability are concerned? The TR is the same design, the bridge is the same design, the strings are the same, the frets are the same design and the nut is the same design.

If any guitar will not adjust properly, there is always a SPECIFIC reason that it wont. Proper diagnosis will point out what the problem(s) are and the exact same diagnostics are used to troubleshoot a SX, Ibanez or an Alembic.

Can you name even one single difference in the design of the Alembic that is not designed into the SX? Be more specific than to say that there is some mystery design difference.

Disagreement is welcome but be specific as to why you disagree. OK?

[avast_bass]

other than the interchangeable hardware, the wood and construction quality of the body itself is different, and undoubtedly (to me, anyway) makes a difference to the tone.

[avast_bass]

by 'difference on how low i can go' im guessing daveman is talking about tone. There is obviously a difference in the Ibanez and alemic, not just in electronics, but in build and materials that CANT be changed with a setup. Sure, perhaps the bridge isnt as smooth, adjustable or reliable, change it! same goes for tuners. You can get your neck worked, fretwork, etc. It's still not going to be the same bass.

[KJung]

I pretty much agree with PKR2 on this one. While more expensive instruments, in general, play better 'out of the box' because of better tolerances, more attention to detail, and a better set-up at the shop, any reasonably well built bass can be made to play great.

If you want to spend the time shimming, filing frets, recutting nuts, etc., etc., then any bass should be able to be made to play very nicely IMO. Of course, some inexpensive basses have beautiful playability right off the music store wall, and some expensive ones can be dogs.

But, in general, the out of the box experience of a more expensive bass is usually much better than that of a cheaper, mass produced model IME.

There are some high end companies that put an amazing amoung of time into set-up and playability prior to shipping. In my experience, MTD and Lakland are the best examples of this.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by avast_bass

by 'difference on how low i can go' im guessing daveman is talking about tone. There is obviously a difference in the Ibanez and alemic, not just in electronics, but in build and materials that CANT be changed with a setup. Sure, perhaps the bridge isnt as smooth, adjustable or reliable, change it! same goes for tuners. You can get your neck worked, fretwork, etc. It's still not going to be the same bass.

Of course it's not going to be the same bass. I didn't even remotely suggest that you can do a quality setup and turn a production line bass into an expensive boutique instrument. I will say that if the bass is built within tolerance to start with, and even cheap basses usually are, that the cheaper bass can be set up with action just as low as any other bass, regardless of the price of the bass.

Please explain to me what the difference is in a Squire bridge with the saddles and comp screws in the exact same position, relative to setup, as the Alembic bridge. You can drive 4 screws into the body of an Alembic to serve as bridge saddles and if they are put in to the exact heigth and position as the Alembic saddles, The bass will play exactly the same as with the Alembic bridge, action wise.

Same question for the fretwork and neck. Why would the Alembic frets be more accurate than if the frets were made out of coat hanger wire but still are in the same place, with the same degree of leveling, smoothness and the same heigth as the original frets? The answer is they will set up identically.

The tuners, by the way, are not part of any action adjustment procedure.

Now, if I'm wrong, tell me specifically where and how I'm wrong in my answer to the very direct, simple and easy to understand question that Vindy asked in his post.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by avast_bass

other than the interchangeable hardware, the wood and construction quality of the body itself is different, and undoubtedly (to me, anyway) makes a difference to the tone.

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"why can a more expensive bass be setup better than a cheaper bass?

"what are the factors that do this, i,e why can the strings go lower on a nice am p than on a squire for example"
***************************************

The above is a cut/paste of the original question. Notice that nowhere is the tone of the bass even mentioned. I stated very plainly and clearly that the tone of a boutique bass will be better because of its higher quality pups etc.

You can believe the following statement or not: There is not a single setup adjustment that addresses the tonal quality of ANY bass. I don't care if the body is made from the door of an outhouse, if it's dimensionally correct and stable, the setup adjustments will do identically the same thing as one made of solid platinum or the most expensive piece of wood ever harvested.

If those of us that are trying to provide help for those who need help start addressing what we think the person is asking rather than what is being plainly asked, the setup forum will be worse than useless.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by avast_bass

by 'difference on how low i can go' im guessing daveman is talking about tone. There is obviously a difference in the Ibanez and alemic, not just in electronics, but in build and materials that CANT be changed with a setup. Sure, perhaps the bridge isnt as smooth, adjustable or reliable, change it! same goes for tuners. You can get your neck worked, fretwork, etc. It's still not going to be the same bass.

He's not talking about tone (which is a whole different discussion), but about set-up and playability.

[ArwinH]

Funny, I've played the living crap out of my first bass and it's recieved little tweaks along the way whenever a problem would rise at a practice or whenever someone decided to lend me a hand. IT's got stupid low action without fretbuzz, the tone is a little dead, but I can't get some basses that cost twice as much to take to such low action.

[vindy500]

thanks guys, yes i have been talking about set up, im looking at buying a bass kit, which you build yourself and as i am probally going to use it more as a practice beast im more worred about the setup, i.e how it plays rather than how it sounds. i know it wont sound anywhere near as good as a boutique but if i can make it playable thats all im worried about, thanks

[avast_bass]

Perhaps I misunderstood the original post. I never intended to argue that a cheap bass cant be made to play amazingly... my job is to try and make that happen... I think I understood that the original post was misunderstood, and as a result was misunderstanding the situation. All tone aside, yes pkr2 is right.

*must stop posting in the early hours*

[ArwinH]

Still, a lot of the reason I pay for a high end bass is that amazing playability, low action, and great feel.

[brianrost]

All I will say is that I have had basses set up by a good luthier and found that one played like butter but I had to fight with the other one. He got out his feeler gauges and showed me that the setups were identical. He also agreed that one played much better than the other but he had no explanation.

I ended up selling the bass that played poorly.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by brianrost

All I will say is that I have had basses set up by a good luthier and found that one played like butter but I had to fight with the other one. He got out his feeler gauges and showed me that the setups were identical. He also agreed that one played much better than the other but he had no explanation.

I ended up selling the bass that played poorly.

I wont argue that what you are describing can't happen. It did, so obviously it can happen.

There are a couple or three things that need to be asked so that we aren't trying to add apples and oranges.

Were the basses the same make and model? Same strings etc.? If you just copy the settings from one bass and use those exact measurements to set up all basses, you're courting a recipe for failure.

When you say that you had to fight one of the basses, exactly what do you mean by the term "fight"? Was the action too high too low, inconsistent or what exactly was the problem with the bass that the luthier couldn't set up properly?

About the only place a feeler guage is commonly used is to preset the relief, and that setting is not the final word because you must change the setting as you bring the adjustments together. Using a feeler guage to try and prove that a setup is right is a totally foolish thing for a luthier to do. Even the manufacturers don't say that thier relief specs are the meant to be the final adjustment.

If a luthier told me that he was turning the bass back over to me but it played like a dog and he couldn't specifically tell me why it still played badly, I would be looking for another luthier. Even if he doesn't know how to fix the problem, he should at least be able to tell you what the problem is.

I've seen dozens of basses that a "luthier' had supposedly set up that had a ski jump in the FB that he tried to work around rather than correcting the ski jump. It could be made to play after a fashion by simply raising the saddles so high that the problem was covered up but the action would be too high.

There are any number of problems that can pop up if the bass is defective to start with.

The best auto mechanic in the world can't tune an engine to run smoothly if the engine has a burned valve. The best instrument repair person in the world can't set up a bass to play proprly if the neck is twisted, the neck angle has shifted etc.

A bass that is mechanically perfect can be set up effectively by almost anyone. Diagnosing a borderline problem can be much, much more difficult. If the problem is not found and corrected, you may very well get it back in a condition that requires fighting it in order to play it.

I can say for certain that the bass that you had the bad experience with had a problem that your luthier either missed or didn't have the time or skill to correct. Had he corrected the prob that was preventing the bass from being set up, the bass would have been set up properly and would have played like your other bass. There is no magic involved.

You are justified in your assumption that the bass was faulty. The whole underlying reason had to be that something was wrong with the bass when you took it in and the problem was still there when you picked it up. I hope that you weren't charged for the setup that he couldn't perform. That would be insult on top of injury.

This discussion has been fun but there's no point in me repeating what I've allready said. Either believe me or don't. It's no skin off my nose either way.
Believe me when I say that if I were in error that there are a lot of highly skilled luthiers and repair people on this forum that would have already dragged me through the coals for offering bad advice.

[bbocaner]

from a materials standpoint, a neck made from quartersawn wood as opposed to flatsawn wood; or a neck made from multiple wood laminations is going to be more stable and react less to changes in environment... which means you can get a lower setup than an instrument which is constantly changing, albeit subtly, and requires tweaking all the time.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by bbocaner

from a materials standpoint, a neck made from quartersawn wood as opposed to flatsawn wood; or a neck made from multiple wood laminations is going to be more stable and react less to changes in environment... which means you can get a lower setup than an instrument which is constantly changing, albeit subtly, and requires tweaking all the time.

I agree with you 100%. However, if you'll notice in one of my earlier posts that I specifically said that what I am saying is based on the condition that the lower priced bass is dimensionally stable. A flat sawn neck can be pretty darn stable if higher quality close grained wood is used but old growth lumber that is close grained ain't gonna be found on the SXs and Rogues. There is a good bit of difference, too, between slowly air dried wood and wood that is kiln dried.

Good quarter sawn lumber is getting harder and harder to find any more. And much more expensive too. A lot more necks can be gotten from a log if they are sawn on the flat of the grain.

[bassybill]

Surely it's mainly down to quality (ie, very close engineering tolerances) in the fretwork, with maybe some aspect of this applying to fingerboard shaping as well?