Why can't I intonate my Ibanez Mikro with flatwounds?

[OldDog52]

D'Addario ECB81S Chrome Flatwounds .045 .065 .080 .100 Regular Light Gauge, Short Scale.

With the flats, the 12th fret note is sharp on all the strings. I have the bridge saddles moved as far away from the neck as they'll go. I've played with the action etc. and can't intonate the Mikro acceptably with the flats. Am I doing something wrong?

I replaced the flats with D'Addario EXL170S Nickel Wound Rounds (same gauges as the flats) and they intonate almost perfectly (although the saddles are still as far out as they'll go).

I realize the Mikro isn't exactly a precision instrument but I'd really like to make the flats work, prefer their tone, but not if they're going to be out of tune all the time. The original factory strings intonate ok, whatever they are.

Anyone have any ideas?

[GregDunn]

Chromes. They take a while to settle in, because they slowly elongate under the slightly higher tension than the rounds. Have you stretched them after tuning, then tuned again? On my Mikro, they took a week or so to stabilize and stop drifting; they were going flat within a day after I tuned them.

Also, make sure you have the witness point set cleanly on each saddle. This changes the effective string length more than you'd expect.

It's not that strange to see the saddles at the end of their travel with new flats; both of my basses (different scale lengths) had this issue till I stretched out the strings and gave them a while to "relax". Now they're pretty much in the middle and intonate just fine. Don't give up yet!

[OldDog52]

Thanks for the advice on the chromes. I'll try that and see what happens.

[OldDog52]

OK, I played with this some more tonight. After looking more closely, I realized the saddles were not adjustable across their entire possible travel because the adjustment screws are too long and bottom out in the saddles. If the threaded screw hole in the saddles went all the way through the body of the saddle so the tip of the screw could emerge from the other side (opposite the screw head) then you could adjust the saddles to be further away from the neck.

I didn't have any appropriate shorter screws, so instead I've temporarily installed a spacer between the head of the screw and the outer part of the bridge. I should post a picture. Anyway this effectively makes the screws "shorter" so I can bring the saddles further away from the neck. I'm now able to intonate the Mikro perfectly with the flatwounds.

A reasonable solution is shorter screws so you can make the saddles travel further. Or even better, the threaded hole in the saddles should go all the way through so the long factory screws don't bottom out too soon.

EDIT: Here's a photo. As you can see the saddles are now almost as far out as they will go with the springs nearly bottomed out.

[OldDog52]

It just occurred to me that it's probably not good to have silk on the saddles like it is now. Ack.

[iiipopes]

Have you also checked that the nut slots are cut correctly (not too high) and the neck has the proper relief for the instrument? Too high nut slots and incorrect relief will also cause intonation problems.

And then, there's a chance that the bridge is simply in the wrong place. Take a string off and move the bridge saddle up to its most forward position. Then measure from the inside edge of the nut to the top of the 12th fret. That should be the same measurement as from the top of the 12th fret to the inside edge of the bridge saddle at its most forward. If it isn't, then the bridge needs to be moved.

One caveat: the nut could also be in the wrong position, or need some intonation adjustment itself. If after the nut slots are cut deep enough and the bass is intonated, if the G third fret on the E string is sharp, then some intonation compensation at the nut may be called for, depending on the strings. This means that the bridge needs to be a tad closer to the neck than otherwise.

So there are a lot of reasons a bass won't intonate, starting with proper setup, good quality strings, and attention to even the esoteric details of how a bass works.

[OldDog52]

Originally Posted by iiipopes

Have you also checked that the nut slots are cut correctly (not too high) and the neck has the proper relief for the instrument? Too high nut slots and incorrect relief will also cause intonation problems.

And then, there's a chance that the bridge is simply in the wrong place. Take a string off and move the bridge saddle up to its most forward position. Then measure from the inside edge of the nut to the top of the 12th fret. That should be the same measurement as from the top of the 12th fret to the inside edge of the bridge saddle at its most forward. If it isn't, then the bridge needs to be moved.

One caveat: the nut could also be in the wrong position, or need some intonation adjustment itself. If after the nut slots are cut deep enough and the bass is intonated, if the G third fret on the E string is sharp, then some intonation compensation at the nut may be called for, depending on the strings. This means that the bridge needs to be a tad closer to the neck than otherwise.

So there are a lot of reasons a bass won't intonate, starting with proper setup, good quality strings, and attention to even the esoteric details of how a bass works.

I'm hardly an expert but the nut slots seem fine. Neck relief is very slight: If I press a string at the first and last frets a credit card will just clear the strings at the midpoint between those extremes, which is probably about .75mm, maybe a little more. Action is low-ish. All these things do interact. The bridge location seems fine but the adjustment screws provided with the bridge bottom out well before the saddles can travel all the way they are designed to. By using the spacers, the saddles can move maybe 3/16" further away from the neck now and the chromes intonate fine that way. Tuning is spot on up and down the fretboard now.

[Turnaround]

FWIW, I have found the Chromes to be amonst the stiffest strings I have ever encountered. Since they aren't very flexible they require serious compensation at the saddles to intonate properly at the twelfth fret. And when you get that right, they are likely to be off on the first few frets.

The stiffer the string, the more it vibrates like a rod rather than a string. The ideal string has no stiffness and is free to vibrate along it's length. A rod, on the other hand, has a significantly different vibration pattern and the overtone series is substantially different from a string. Some may like it - I don't.

Each to his own.

[OldDog52]

When I finished up working on this last night, intonation was very good at both ends of the fretboard. I'll check it carefully when I get home tonight after it's had a day to sit and settle in. I want this to work ok because I love the sound of those flats on the Mikro.

[OldDog52]

After messing with this yet again tonight, I have to flip-flop. Decided these flatwounds just won't work acceptably on the Mikro. I have to move the bridge saddles so far out, especially the E and A string, that they will no long sit flush with the bottom of the bridge plate. The E & A saddles are almost "floating". I guess an earlier poster might say something about witnessing? Anyway there's so much tension from the compressed spring that it sproings the saddle up just enough that it starts rattling. They won't stay solidly in place. And the silk touches the saddle.

So I put the round Nickel Wounds back on, readjusted virtually everything, and it seems fine (I've said that before but the saddles aren't backed all the way out now, they sit firmly in place; and these strings have no silk ).

So I will fiddle with the EQ on the amp to get the sound I think I want and forget about flatwounds for now.

Aside from that did you enjoy the play Mrs. Lincoln?

[GregDunn]

That was me. Try pressing down - hard - on each string just in front of the saddle to make sure it makes an abrupt change in angle rather than a shallow curve as it passes over the saddle. This ensures that the string contacts the saddle solidly and that the distance from witness point to nut is as short as possible. On my Mikro and my SR690 - both strung with ECB81 Chromes - this made a difference of at least 1/4 inch in the position of the saddle when properly intonated. Much more than you'd think it would.

As for stretching - I grab the string near the neck joint and pull gently but firmly away from the bass a couple of inches and then release (also gently). Doing that a couple of times made a huge one-time change in the intonation and helped the strings settle in much quicker.

Both basses now have their saddles approximately in the middle of the adjustment range and intonate just fine.

I understand your frustration; but for me the great sound of the Chromes made it all worth it in the end.

[OldDog52]

Last night I stretched the strings probably close to the 2 inches as you recommend. Still ended up with the E saddle backed all the way out, and the A nearly the same. At that point those saddles wouldn't stay put though. The downward string force on the saddle was being almost completely offset by the adjustment spring being fully compressed. I suspect a different (shorter) set of springs might help with the floating saddles. But then I still had the issue of silk on the saddles and I didn't want to try and strip back the silk.

Thanks for your advice. I'm sure I'll revisit this at some point.

[Diogenes]

If you prefer to have the Chromes (my fave strings) on the Mikro I think it's worth the hassle of resetting the bridge back a half an inch or more. That may leave you with two visible screw holes but just insert a couple of nice looking pan-head screws as "decoration". I'm a firm believer of function over form if the choice were either/or.

[ixlramp]

Tip: remove the saddle springs, they're not necessary.

Tip 2: silk on the saddles is not good, so put thread a spacer onto the strings, positioned between ball-end and bridge. This shifts the silk away from the saddle crest. Use old bass ball-ends as spacers, they're smaller than nuts. You could alternatively trim off silk with a sharp blade, burn off any residue with a butane lighter.

My fretless didn't intonate so I have spacers on the strings and the saddle adjustment bolts.

[ixlramp]

Tip 3: A different method of intonating. The open note may be out of tune with fret 1. Try intonating by tuning fret 1, then observe the tuning of frets 2 to 12. It's more important the frets are in tune than just the open note and fret 12.

Tip4: If all else fails. Saddle offset is a measure of stiffness. A smaller gauge or more flexible flatwound requires less saddle offset.

[Pilgrim]

Agreed - three things:

- Remove or shorten the spring. It doesn't all need to be there, and if it doesn't rattle, it's not needed at all.

- Remove the silks.

- Press the string down HARD on each side of the saddle.

[OldDog52]

Thanks for all the suggestions! I was thinking more about this and removing those springs is definitely worth a try. Also adding the spacer at the ball end sounds promising too. Moving the bridge would be the last resort but not outside of the realm of possibilities.