Why does every 5 string have this problem???

[Soreinsun]

So I own three 5 strings (Yamaha RBX 765a, TRB 1005f, and a Carvin Icon 5-er). I set up my own basses and I'm no idiot when it comes to mechanical problems. Here is my problem; I'll be short.

Take my Yamaha RBX765a for instance. If I wish to properly intonate the B string and have a reasonable action it is impossible to bring the saddle back far enough before the string starts to bind and I just run out of room. I use medium gauge strings and again; a very reasonably high action.

Here is what I know:
1) fret placement is only correct on a string equal in length to the length calculated for in fret placement. (34 inches in this case)

2) if a string is running sharp on notes as you go up the neck, the string length must be made longer.

3) the two independent values we can adjust are the two "legs" of the triangle; i.e. the saddle height and front to back possition. (I guess I must also account for truss rod adjustment? help me out here...)

I need a new bridge for this particular bass because some of the saddle screws have worn out over the years. I'm considering having 5 individual saddles installed to account for this issue. Bass kingdom, I am at your mercy... what should I do?

[fullrangebass]

I'd say take it to a local tech. Be present to see if you actually did anything wrong while setting up (hardly the chance, but it cannot be ruled out) and if he fails too, then ask him his opinion. Maybe changing the bridge is a solution, but I think amybe a proper set up is the real answer. No need to throw money on new saddles, unless it's confirmed that it will sove the problem


YMMV etc etc

[Zooberwerx]

*You should be setting your intonation by matching 12th fret harmonic with the 12th fretted. There are a dozen+ modified procedures but this should suffice for now.

*Be sure to set your witness points by firmly pressing the string down on the forward side of the bridge saddle and fretboard side of the nut.

*How's your relief set? I aim for .010-.014" at the 8th fret with the 1st and 17th fretted.

*How's your nut set? I aim for a gap of .003-.005" at the 1st fret with the 3rd fretted.

*If all else fails, you can always remove the spring, whatever, from the intonation screw. This may allow for extra travel.

Riis

[Steve]

As the last act of a desperate man, you might want to try (if you haven't already) a different type of B string. It's been my experience that a taper core string can have a significantly different intonation point than a non taper core.

I have a fairly expensive Tobias that will not intonate properly with a taper core string but is fine with a regular string. I kinda remember Roger Sadowsky posting once that his bridges will intonate either in front or behind the E string saddle depending on the type of string.

For the life of me though, I can't remember which one would move you in the direction you want to go. It could make the situation worse.

Additionally, it can be kinda tough it not impossible to get a B to intonate properly unless the action is low. Just by virtue of the string physics, there's a lot of back and forth swing in the string and there needs to be a little more air underneath it to keep it from rattling against the frets. As you get higher up the neck the distance can become great enough that just pressing the string down to the frets will pull it audibly sharper. The point where it's high enough to not rattle on the low note but low enough that it doesn't pull sharp at the double dots can be a real PITA to find.

As always, IMHO YMMV.

[Soreinsun]

Thanks gentlemen,
Keep in mind that I will have to replace that bridge anyway... the setscrews in the B String saddle have worn out... so in the case of this bass I'm more or less wondering if different bridge placement/individual saddles will help my problem. With my other basses your comments still apply and I am grateful for your ideas. It's hard to find a trustworthy guitar tech around here...

And I guess I should say I hate taperwounds because they don't intonate well for me and just have wierd overtones...

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Soreinsun

Thanks gentlemen,
Keep in mind that I will have to replace that bridge anyway... the setscrews in the B String saddle have worn out... so in the case of this bass I'm more or less wondering if different bridge placement/individual saddles will help my problem. With my other basses your comments still apply and I am grateful for your ideas. It's hard to find a trustworthy guitar tech around here...

And I guess I should say I hate taperwounds because they don't intonate well for me and just have wierd overtones...

Bridge placement is rarely an issue. It is extremely rare for instruments mass produced on CNC machinery. That includes the Yamahas, possibly the Carvin.

When set screws wear out, replace the set screws. That is, unless you have another more compelling reason to replace the entire bridge.

If, after taking Riis's (Riis'?) advice intonation is still off, the problem is at the nut. It is essential that the string stop at the fingerboard side of the nut. If TDC is somewhere in the middle or headstock edge of the seat it effectively changes the scale length on that string. The seat will have to be recut to remedy the problem. Not a big deal with good hand skills and the right tools.

[phmike]

I used to worry about my B string intonation "way up there" at the 12th fret. But then I realized that I never play the B string higher than the 5th fret anyway so I get the intonation right up to the 6th fret and from there on up it's just a thumb rest.
I'm seen some basses (I forget which right now) that have an extended B (or E on a 4 banger) string ball seat and intonation screw.

[the yeti]

every 5 string doesn't have that problem. you're just a victim of weird coincidence.

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by the yeti

every 5 string doesn't have that problem. you're just a victim of weird coincidence.

From what I gather, every 5 string belonging to the OP has a similar problem which may be pandemic to B strings as a whole or resulting from inconsistencies in the OP's set-up procedure (not intended to be a dig...we're here to help!). We'll know more when we see some follow-up.

Riis

[MrLenny1]

I have the same issue with my Tobias's. Classic 5, Basic 5.
I brought them to a good tech and he concluded that is was the nature
of a low B five.
I think I will try removing the spring & see if that helps.
I put a tapered end B string on the Classic & it seemed to help but I find a tapered B
too floppy to play.

[phmike]

Found it. Yamaha BB LTD 5 string bass has an extended B string ball end seat and longer intonation screw anchor to allow the B string saddle to move further back than the other saddles.
I had the "saddle won't go back far enough" problem on my Fender 5 string Jazz (before I realized I was intonating a thumb rest) and removing the spring cured it.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

From what I gather, every 5 string belonging to the OP has a similar problem which may be pandemic to B strings as a whole or resulting from inconsistencies in the OP's set-up procedure (not intended to be a dig...we're here to help!). We'll know more when we see some follow-up.

Riis

All of which lends credence to a lack of witness points.

Originally Posted by phmike

Found it. Yamaha BB LTD 5 string bass has an extended B string ball end seat and longer intonation screw anchor to allow the B string saddle to move further than the other saddles.
I had the "saddle won't go back far enough" problem on my Fender 5 string Jazz and removing the spring cured it.

This is a solution in search of a problem, given that the basic bridge design is large enough to allow for proper travel. If the problem is witness point or improper nut adjustment, the longer travel will only mask the problem by allowing for agreement at the twelfth fret. All other frets will be out of intonation a certain amount because the frets are in the wrong position for the new extended scale length. The only question left is whether or not it can be heard in the mix.

[Soreinsun]

It's a PITA, but I'm going to try adjusting my settings... We'll see what I can do. I think I have set screws that might replace the current problem ones.

I'll adjust the truss rod so there is very little relief (paper thick at 8th fret) and then see what I can do from there.

I was always told that 34' scale lengths have this issue with the B string. Can anyone comment otherwise?

As always, I'm in debt for you guys to take time to help me out. I've been playing for 9 years and I'm always learning new things.

[Soreinsun]

Alright, People of the Online Bass Community...

I just adjusted the truss rod and raised the action a little more to make up for the play lost by tightening the truss rod and now it's playing quite well. The replacement set screws are holding up okay as well. I'm going to give it 24 hours to settle down before I try to intonate. Here's to hoping....

[202dy]

There is no need to wait before setting intonation.

[Chasarms]

Originally Posted by Soreinsun

. . . I was always told that 34' scale lengths have this issue with the B string. Can anyone comment otherwise? . . . .

I have owned more than a dozen 34" fivers and never had an issue. More often than not, I have used tapered core strings, but even using a conventional B I have not had problems.

I would seriously consider a tapercore string of you can't get it. The Sadowsky strings are excellent. They have a short taper to prevent the warbling issue and intonate perfectly. I play my B strings at and above the 12th fret with very good pitch.

[butchblack]

Originally Posted by Soreinsun

Thanks gentlemen,
Keep in mind that I will have to replace that bridge anyway... the setscrews in the B String saddle have worn out... so in the case of this bass I'm more or less wondering if different bridge placement/individual saddles will help my problem. With my other basses your comments still apply and I am grateful for your ideas. It's hard to find a trustworthy guitar tech around here...

And I guess I should say I hate taperwounds because they don't intonate well for me and just have weird overtones...

If you are going to replace the bridge anyway, check to see if any of the strings are set near the front of the bridge. If not, have the tech set the bridge SLIGHTLY further back then the current one.

[mech]

I'm not familiar with the OP's basses but I have noticed that if a manufacturer makes 4 and 5 string versions of the same model bass, most will use the 4 string position for the bridge on both even though the 5 string bridge should be positioned about 1/8" farther from the nut to accommodate the B string.

I have several 4 strings set up BEAD and have had to remove the spring on all of them to get enough saddle travel for the B string.

mech

[knuckle_head]

I suggest relocating your bridge(s).

You aren't the only one this happens to, fwiw. I recommend witnessing your saddle at mathematical 34" when it is all the way forward. Standard compensation is roughly 1/8" and gets longer the thicker the strings are. You should have plenty of travel doing this and can use the bridge(s) you have.

[Skitch it!]

I've owned loads of Yam's over 25+years, I still do, it's all I use. Those fretting machines are not perfect, you will have a few frets slightly 'out', but I've never run out of adjustment on the B, it's a bit strange? Jus' saying; )