Will shimming change sustain or tone?

[Oh! Henry]

Sorry if this has been already answered, but I wasn't able to find any specific answers. I want lower action and am considering shimming the neck. Will it affect sustain or tone since the contact between neck and body will be reduced?

Thanks

[Fretlessboy]

Is the bridge adjusted as far as it can be?

Originally Posted by Oh! Henry

Sorry if this has been already answered, but I wasn't able to find any specific answers. I want lower action and am considering shimming the neck. Will it affect sustain or tone since the contact between neck and body will be reduced?

Thanks

[Turnaround]

Originally Posted by Oh! Henry

Sorry if this has been already answered, but I wasn't able to find any specific answers. I want lower action and am considering shimming the neck. Will it affect sustain or tone since the contact between neck and body will be reduced?

Thanks

If done properly, it will have no noticebale affect on the tonal quality of the instrument. With very sophisticated measuring devices you might be able to spot a difference, but it is highly unlikely that a human being could hear the difference. But I have to ask why you think it is necessary to add a shim in the first place. Is there a reason that you don't just lower the bridge saddles?

[dbcandle]

Originally Posted by Fretlessboy

Is the bridge adjusted as far as it can be?

+1. Shimming is often described as a magical way to get lower action, but all it does is compensate for bridge-saddles "bottoming-out" or "topping-out" when adjusted.

I took that subject at "The School of Hard Knocks".

Re: Tone, ideally you'd want a tapered piece of wood veneer. Previous threads in this forum talk about how to sand a piece of veneer so that it is properly tapered. Personally, I'd be more concerned about warpage. If you put something "funky" (not in a good way) in your neck-joint and over-tighten, you could have some warpage at the high frets (after many years).

[Ric5]

Another option is to route a hole for the bridge ... but that can be a little extreme.

I have several bolt on neck basses ... 2 of them are shimmed ... use a good piece of wood to shim it and it should play well.

Theoretically the neck joint is a place where a bolt on neck bass can loose energy and therefore loose sustain ... and theoretically a neck through bass will be superior in tone and sustain ... but in reality that is an oversimplification.

The tone and sustain of a bass depend on the construction, type of wood, type of glue, type of finish, mass, type of bridge, strings, headstock, type of truss rods, etc ...

The bottom line is a lot of bolt on neck basses have shims and still have sustain.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by dbcandle

+1. Shimming is often described as a magical way to get lower action, but all it does is compensate for bridge-saddles "bottoming-out" or "topping-out" when adjusted.

I took that subject at "The School of Hard Knocks".

Re: Tone, ideally you'd want a tapered piece of wood veneer. Previous threads in this forum talk about how to sand a piece of veneer so that it is properly tapered. Personally, I'd be more concerned about warpage. If you put something "funky" (not in a good way) in your neck-joint and over-tighten, you could have some warpage at the high frets (after many years).

All things can be viewed from many angles.

It would be better to say that shimming the neck is the way that the geometry or neck angle of the instrument is adjusted so that the instrument plays properly. Most commercial bridges have enough range of adjustment to compensate for any instrument that is set up correctly. In other words, if the saddles are at the extremes of adjustment and the action is not correct it is the fault of the geometry rather than the bridge.

Warping and distortion of the end of the neck are relative uncommon. If the adjustments are made with an eye toward the difference in strengths between the wood in the neck and steel in the screws it should never be a problem. Full pocket shims are deluxe but are not necessary. Add to that, most players are not willing to pay for the time that it takes to fabricate them.

[Ric5]

For a full neck pocket shimm I like to used a wood pickguard and cut it to size and cut 4 oversize holes for the neck bolts ...

I like to play aggressively and it is nice to have the strings be not too close to the bass body ...

[jrfrond]

I don't like shims, mainly for the reason that they will eventually create a "rising tongue" condition, whereas the area around the last several frets rises up. In addition, I feel that air space does NOT belong in a neck joint. Perhaps I am just a bit too anal about this, because there are guitars and basses that sound just fine WITH shims, and the "rising tongue" condition can be repaired, or compensated for via fret leveling. Having said that, I ideally like to use full shims and GLUE them to the neck pocket to correct the geometry of the string plane.

The problem lies in the fact that Fender and many aftermarket suppliers bullishly continue to cut the neck pocket at a zero degree angle, when in fact, it is inherently incorrect and needs to be corrected. Warmoth, most notably, offers neck pocket angles on their replacement bodies. Unless the bridge is countersunk into the body, most Fender-style guitars will require a shim to set up and play properly.

An alternative that I use on my own instruments is to correct the neck angle on the heel of the neck itself. Mechanically and structurally, there is nothing wrong with this, because so little wood is removed. I just touch up the finish at the heel and blend point and I am good to go. Takes about a minute to do on a belt sander.

[Oh! Henry]

Thanks for your answers guys, there's lots of interesting info here. The saddles on the G string is in fact bottomed out. It's still very playable it's just a smidge too high for my taste. I'll bring it to a luthier for a proper setup before considering any kind of shimming as I'm in no way qualified to do this kind of work.

[Philbiker]

Originally Posted by Oh! Henry

Sorry if this has been already answered, but I wasn't able to find any specific answers. I want lower action and am considering shimming the neck. Will it affect sustain or tone since the contact between neck and body will be reduced?

No.

[Philbiker]

Originally Posted by jrfrond

I don't like shims, mainly for the reason that they will eventually create a "rising tongue" condition, whereas the area around the last several frets rises up. In addition, I feel that air space does NOT belong in a neck joint. Perhaps I am just a bit too anal about this, because there are guitars and basses that sound just fine WITH shims, and the "rising tongue" condition can be repaired, or compensated for via fret leveling. Having said that, I ideally like to use full shims and GLUE them to the neck pocket to correct the geometry of the string plane.

The problem lies in the fact that Fender and many aftermarket suppliers bullishly continue to cut the neck pocket at a zero degree angle, when in fact, it is inherently incorrect and needs to be corrected. Warmoth, most notably, offers neck pocket angles on their replacement bodies. Unless the bridge is countersunk into the body, most Fender-style guitars will require a shim to set up and play properly.

I don't think most of this post is accurate. Perhaps a qualified luthier can comment further.

Originally Posted by jrfrond

An alternative that I use on my own instruments is to correct the neck angle on the heel of the neck itself. Mechanically and structurally, there is nothing wrong with this, because so little wood is removed. I just touch up the finish at the heel and blend point and I am good to go. Takes about a minute to do on a belt sander.

There's certainly nothing wrong with this method of modifying neck angle. The term "massive overkill" comes to mind, but there's nothing really wrong with that.

[joeyl]

Originally Posted by jrfrond

Warmoth, most notably, offers neck pocket angles on their replacement bodies.

I have never seen this from Warmoth, are you sure? Their replacement bodies are straight up to Fender specs....

[jrfrond]

Originally Posted by Philbiker

I don't think most of this post is accurate. Perhaps a qualified luthier can comment further

a) It's dead-on accurate

b) I AM a qualified luthier and repairman. If you don't believe this, call Fender Customer Service and ask them.


FYI- From the Warmoth website:

"Angled Neck Pockets

We offer two different angles. The big angle is for use with the Gibson Tune-O-Matic type bridges, the Gotoh 510 bridge and the Schaller 456 bridge (all stud mount). The small angle is for use with a non-recessed Floyd Rose bridge rout to minimize any need for neck shims.

This option is $10 extra."

Not listed for bass bodies, but CAN be requested.

[joeyl]

Originally Posted by jrfrond

FYI- From the Warmoth website:

"Angled Neck Pockets

We offer two different angles. The big angle is for use with the Gibson Tune-O-Matic type bridges, the Gotoh 510 bridge and the Schaller 456 bridge (all stud mount). The small angle is for use with a non-recessed Floyd Rose bridge rout to minimize any need for neck shims.

This option is $10 extra."

Not listed for bass bodies, but CAN be requested.

haha no wonder I have never seen this, we don't need no stinking Warmoth guit*r specs

[maurilio]

If the shim is very thin it will not affect the performance. Placed in between the two front screws (if this makes sense) it will not "distort" the neck.
If the G saddle needs to go just only a tiny lower, I would file the bottom of the saddle. I did it more than once and it worked like a charme.

M