Wrestling with 202dy

[202dy]

Wrestling with 202dy
(Dedicated to pkr2, who fought the great fight to the death.)

Gentlefolk (since I have been accused of insensitivity I do not want to add political incorrectness to the list):

In a recent thread, I was called out for being overly dramatic in a recent reply. Another poster has taken me to task for arguing that “jury rigged” repairs are not the best choice when there is a better, more professional solution. Much in the same way that many players eschew reading music as an unnecessary impediment to becoming a good player or writer, (an oft-heard excuse is that “Reading music will spoil my creativity.”), amateur repairfolk tend to cling to a method with which they have had success even when faced with a more professional, or more sound solution. When the method is challenged they tend to increase their grip on the idea rather than open their minds to a new or better method. Whether this is because they do not know better, are not woodworkers or luthiers, or simply come from the school that believes that doing it easy and quick is better than doing it right, I will never know and they will never tell. What I do not understand is why, when presented with one of the sound, time-honored methods they cling to what is obviously a substandard method.

This habit is not restricted to the music community. A friend tells a story that happened many years ago when he was running a construction company. He noticed one of his carpenters incorrectly applying shingles to a roof deck. He called the fellow down off the roof to have a chat. When he heard what my friend had to say, the carpenter informed him with some great indignation that his Uncle Henry taught him how to do shingle a roof and Uncle Henry did it that way for forty years. To say that the carpenter was crestfallen when informed that his uncle did it wrong for forty years would be an understatement. When the carpenter returned to the roof, he continued doing it his way. He applied for unemployment the next day. After a brief hearing the state declined to pay him.

What is tragic about this story is that the instructions for the correct application of shingles, both for standard and high wind conditions, are printed clearly on every bundle of shingles that comes out of every factory in this country. Even if the carpenter had taken the time to read the bundle, he insisted on doing it his way. In his mind, Uncle Henry knew more about roofing than Owens-Corning or Johns Manville.

One of the dangers of recommending these methods is that the novice will unknowingly accept these ideas as correct. Call it the “Uncle Henry Syndrome” if you like. They come to the internet looking for answers to questions that they are not even sure how to ask. They are not aware of Dan Erlewine, Cumpiano and Natelson, Don Teeter, Hideo Kamimoto, Irving Sloan, or any of the other luthiers and repairfolk on whose books and methods the professional relies. This might not seem like a big deal to many people. However, it is amazing how quick the jury-rigged repair or the uninformed advice found here and other websites become accepted as gospel truth.

When someone who does their research and finds these kinds of answers brings their instrument to a professional for repair it can make for a ticklish situation. Armed with their newfound “knowledge” they proceed to quiz the pro on his methods. When the intrepid tech tells them how they will proceed they argue or decline to have the repair work performed. The reason is that it is obvious to them that this experienced tech does not know the procedures as they have come to understand them. In other words, they are basing their decision to have the work performed based on misinformation and facts that are not true. Another way this happens is the same conversation occurs after the work is completed. It will not matter to this person that the instrument is setup or repaired correctly. They will go out on the street and tell everyone who cares to listen that the tech does not know what their craft. This is an unnecessary threat to the livelihood of luthiers everywhere. It used to happen through word of mouth. Now that same word of mouth has worldwide consequences because someone posted the wrong information on an internet forum.

I have friends and colleagues in law, medicine, and other professions who have expressed the same frustrations. They tell me that they face the same things every day. The one advantage they have is that in almost all cases the client or patient will defer to their expertise. We can only surmise that it has something to do with the diplomas hanging on the wall. They have also noted with no small amount of chagrin that old codgers with professional degrees and experience rarely know as much as the unlearned friend of the young client.

It is frustrating to the professional in the extreme.

A number of years ago Mike Watt made an album that included different players on each track. He referred to it as a “wrestling album” because he wanted to approach it differently than most people would. Rather than collaborate with the other musicians he wanted to challenge them in order to bring out the best in them and some new sounding music. The same idea applies to this thread.

Rather than duke it out Off Topic in the middle of another thread, I invite anyone to converse on these subjects here and now. If you want to discuss luthiery, the theory and practice I will be most accommodating. Just remember, you must be able to back up your assertions with the facts and logic. Ad hominem arguments need not apply.

Who wants to wrestle?

[kevinmoore73]

Great post. I see the same thing when it comes to computers. Just because someone has been using computers for a few years to read their e-mail and browse the web doesn't make them an expert, but you'll find a lot of self-proclaimed computer experts with no more credentials than that.

[Joshua]

Chucklehead.



I was just thinking about pkr2 a couple days ago. I miss the ol' coot.

Oh, and a big +1 on the post...

[Turnaround]

Nicely put 202dy.

The internet can be a wonderful resource. It can also be the source of a lot of misinformation, bad advice, crackpot ideas and uninformed opinions.

It would be easy to say "you get what you pay for" but that would do a dis-service to forums like these where you can get a lot of very good advice. The problem remains - how do you sort out good advice from bad? Or the best from the not-so-good?

[202dy]

Thanks for the support, gentlemen.

Turnaround brings up a very good question. How does the novice or intermediate player decide what is good information and what is just the opinion of someone who is just guessing and what is just pure myth or garbage? The answer is simple. But the answer is not easy. The reader needs to do several things:

1. Look at the poster's profile.
2. Search for their posts on repair.
3. Read those posts.
4. Decide who knows what they are talking about and who does not.
5. Do this with other posters who seem to know what they are talking about.
6. Make a decision and follow the best advice, or combine elements from the best.

That takes a lot of work. Will a person seeking this information do this kind of work? I don't know. It's the smart thing to do. If they've been lurking for awhile they have already made some decisions as to who knows what they're talking about. But if they haven't or they are looking for quick answers, chances are they will do what seems the simplest. Or they will elect the option that does not involve a trip to the cool little hardware store or the major home center out on the highway.

What it comes down to every time is to keep on posting the truth and the way in hopes that some will listen.

[dbcandle]

I, for one, have greatly benefited from your posts. I really appreciate your "voice of experience"!

[Joshua]

Originally Posted by dbcandle

I, for one, have greatly benefited from your posts. I really appreciate your "voice of experience"!

Seconded.

And you can add Turnaround and Chasarms (and pkr2) to that list, as well as a bunch I am certainly forgetting.

[Turnaround]

Originally Posted by 202dy

1. Look at the poster's profile.

??? Did you actually say that???

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Turnaround

??? Did you actually say that???

Yes. I did.

Why?

ETA: for clarification

Why look at the profile? It is agreed that it doesn't make sense. It is about the page, not the profile. All of their posts are easy to access from this page. By reviewing some of the posts, it will give the reader an idea if the poster knows the subject matter. The reader can compare and contrast various posters. In this way, they can make an informed decision as to who to believe and how to proceed.

As far as looking at a poster’s profile goes, it may or may not be revealing. With the advent of MySpace and Facebook, many people seem to think that the profile is important. There are tales all over the place of deception. It seems to be unreliable. It is the internet. People lie all the time. It is easy to hide behind the keyboard. There is no way to verify the information in a profile. Some profiles seem to be straightforward. Others are not. Some are pure fantasy.

They say that actions speak louder than words. On the internet it is difficult to see the action. All that is left is words. The words of a TB poster are far more important that what they put in their profile. It is the only way to judge whether they have knowledge of the subject matter.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by Turnaround

??? Did you actually say that???

Hilarious!

202dy, if that is your real name, you might, just might, want to fill out your profile. If you're an "expert" then you should identify yourself.

10 plus years of toothpicks and glue on one single bass repair can't be wrong!

[202dy]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

Hilarious!

202dy, if that is your real name, you might, just might, want to fill out your profile. If you're an "expert" then you should identify yourself.

10 plus years of toothpicks and glue on one single bass repair can't be wrong!

This is a good example of an ad hominem fallacy. This device is used in advertising all the time. A celebrity is selected to endorse sports equipment or motor oil. The hope is that the consumer will make a purchase based on familiarity or worship of the celebrity. They sell guitars this way, too. But just because someone buys a Strat dosen't mean they can play like Hendrix. But people do it all the time.

Credentials, especially on the internet, are meaningless. In most cases they are impossible to verify. When they can be verified, they only serve to support or detract from the writings of the poster. It is better to rely on the information placed in a post than on "who" the poster is.

My profile remains blank. A laundry list of my accomplishments and experience serve no good purpose. It would be better that others judge me on what I say rather than who I might claim to be. What I try to do on TalkBass is to give the readers the benefit of my experience, always with an aim toward master craftsmanship. If you like my advice, use it. If you don't, ignore it.

[Slater]

There's a saying that I find I have to use too often:

"Just because you've been doing it wrong for a long time doesn't make it right."

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by 202dy

This is a good example of an ad hominem fallacy. This device is used in advertising all the time. A celebrity is selected to endorse sports equipment or motor oil. The hope is that the consumer will make a purchase based on familiarity or worship of the celebrity. They sell guitars this way, too. But just because someone buys a Strat dosen't mean they can play like Hendrix. But people do it all the time.

Credentials, especially on the internet, are meaningless. In most cases they are impossible to verify. When they can be verified, they only serve to support or detract from the writings of the poster. It is better to rely on the information placed in a post than on "who" the poster is.

My profile remains blank. A laundry list of my accomplishments and experience serve no good purpose. It would be better that others judge me on what I say rather than who I might claim to be. What I try to do on TalkBass is to give the readers the benefit of my experience, always with an aim toward master craftsmanship. If you like my advice, use it. If you don't, ignore it.

If you refuse to fill out your profile, then you're just another nameless, faceless poster, who can't even be bothered to pay for a supporting membership. You could be a pro luthier, or you could be a pimply-faced teenager that only as smart as the latest wiki posting or the last article you read on the web. The internet has made experts out of everyone, you know.

By starting this thread, you seem to assume that you are owed some level of respect or that we are to assume that you have some amount of experience that makes you an asset to the board. The attitude you have displayed on other posts seems to confirm this assumptiuon. Don't expect to get much respect as a pro if you refuse to share your background and experience with the board.

[GlennW]

202dy has my respect. There's a lot I can't do, but one thing I'm pretty good at is determining those who know what they're talkng about and those who don't. He does.

[Joshua]

Originally Posted by GlennW

202dy has my respect. There's a lot I can't do, but one thing I'm pretty good at is determining those who know what they're talkng about and those who don't. He does.

Amen.

I rarely look at anyone's profile, as it can be 100% fictional in any event. It's the content of their posts that I take into account...

[PilbaraBass]

Originally Posted by Joshua

Amen.

I rarely look at anyone's profile, as it can be 100% fictional in any event. It's the content of their posts that I take into account...

That's right! We all know you're REAL name is not Joshua...and it's too bad that you got cleaned up in the primaries, Rudy...Not a great politician, but you're a pretty knowedgeable bassist.


Now where did I leave my butter knife? I've got a bass to fix.

On a serious note (I have some)...I think it's important to be able to do quality work and take pride in it...ad hoc repairs work in a pinch (as the likes of Billy Sheehan and Eddie Van Halen can attest)...but why settle for 2nd rate work?

[Joshua]

Originally Posted by PilbaraBass

That's right! We all know you're REAL name is not Joshua...and it's too bad that you got cleaned up in the primaries, Rudy...Not a great politician, but you're a pretty knowedgeable bassist.