Any studio moles/engineers here?

[Kabal]

Just wondering if there's anyone here that can help me with non bass related sound stuff specifically drums .

I'm trying to get some tones down and was wondering if anyone who has done a lot of recording drummers if you could give me some advice as to what's going on with the drum sound here. Really any info is relevant and I know there are many variables that are out of my hands but any help at all is appreciated.

Christian Scott-K.K.P.D

Any ideas of drum size, micing technique, anything to do with even getting in the ballpark of this sound I'll take. The tones vary somewhat across the album and its good so check it out if you got time.

Edit: I'm just now realizing the recording gear sub-forum might fit this thread better. If I made a mistake I'd like to ask the mods to move it.

[Killspringer]

Not sure what you are asking but maybe if you provided a list of your available resources (mics, studios, budget, drums, etc) and asked a question we could help. I will say I'm listening on my iMac speakers at work, so I can't say too much.

Sounds like you're trying to emulate the drumming on this record? Sounds very roomy. The thing I think a lot of people do when mixing drums (and what I used to do) is start with the close mics (kick, snare, tom), push those faders up, and then mix the room up under that. I don't do this anymore. Start by getting the overheads and room mics perfect, and mix everything else up under that if you decide you need it. Less is more, mic'ing wise. Even more importantly though, is to start by putting a great drummer behind a great kit in a great great great room

Ask different studios for a sample of their drum sound and pick the one who's room tone you like the most

[Kabal]

Yeah basically I want to emulate it tone wise. Funny I missed asking the very question I wanted to get answered

Anyhoo...

As far as mics go I can't totally specify as far as make and model but I can get back to you on that.

I think the kit is a Gretsch. It looks like it has similar dimensions to a Tama starter kit but it sounds very very thick. Of course I'm not entirely certain about that either and I can get you more specifics later. He has some other drum sizes he can switch in but I don't know to what extent.

Budget is limited...very limited...I'm recording with an engineer who is involved with bands I'm involved in so I'm getting a deep discount. He's got some really nice equipment but it's still a home operation. I don't really have the cash to go looking around for a more "professional" studio. The guy is good though don't get me wrong.

A great drummer I have...mostly but the room is a huge problem because its very small. The space itself is pretty well soundproofed. You say they sound very roomy so I guess a small room wouldn't exactly cut it? Are there ways we can improvise a space more accommodating to the sound I'm looking for?

[Killspringer]

Yeah, open the door to the room and put a mic (or two in stereo or at various distances) way down the hallway, or even in another room down the hallway and around the corner. Seriously, we even do it at the pro studios I work at. Makes the room sound bigger than it actually is, especially on the snare. This might not be a possibility for you because of other rooms having windows or whatever, but just try to get some room or corridor mics as far away from the kit as you can to get some good delay and reverb effects going on. You can compress the room mics to make them sound a little bigger too

Other than that, probably have to make up for it in reverb in the mix. Drums are so loud so they really have a ton of reflections from the room. If you can, just get the biggest room you can to record in. If you end up in a great room, you can move the mics back and embrace the sound. If you end up in a smaller room have to fight the congested room tone, you'll have to move the mics up closer to the kit, particularly any condensors or overheads. It sounds like the overheads in this recording were at a pretty fair distance above the kit. Finally, might want to opt for just a mono overhead to avoid funny phasing problems and room tone problems in a smaller room. You can use panning of the close mics for perspective while mixing

[Kabal]

I don't think I ever would have thought of that. thanks

Can you give me any info in terms of physical drum sound? When I listen to the snare it sounds small and thin, as do the toms. The kick also sounds very subdued.

I would guess that at least in regard to the kick its more a technique whereas with the snare and toms it seems like he's still hitting hard but they're just naturally producing a thinner sound.

Is that more a result from micing or the actual drum and whether or not they have some kind of dampener or is it impossible to really tell from the listener's perspective?

This might be too drummer specific but just thought I'd throw it out there

[Killspringer]

Looks like it was recorded by Rudy Van Gelder at Van Gelder Studios in Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey. I couldn't find a website for the studio, but if you search google images you can see pictures of what looks like a large/medium sized wooden lodge type of room.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3504/...6fccf74f96.jpg

http://www.daveliebman.com/Photo/Not...gelder.jpg.jpg

http://jazzcollector.com/blog/wp-con...der-studio.jpg

I'm assuming it went to tape, and that the engineer allowed bleed between mics.

[Killspringer]

Assuming you can't tune the drums any better than they already have been (spend an hour on tuning at least), or use a better/thicker sounding snare or toms...

For snare - try mic'ing the vent (the hole on the side that lets air out) as well as the top and/or bottom. Blend the signals. the vent should be nice and thick

for kick - Put one mic inside the drum, about an inch away from where the beater strikes the head and a little off axis to stay out of the way of the big puff of air that happens there. This is the head attack. Put another mic outside the kick, right at the port, or if there isn't a port, where the port would be. This is the meat/tone of the body of the kick. Put a third mic (if you have it) a few feet back from the kick. this is the sub bass. Use a large diaphragm condensor here.

for toms - mic the top and bottom. top for attack (I even use high pass filters here or mics with a super focused hypercardiod pattern), bottom for bass.

multiple mics will have phasing issues, so make sure you and the engineer understand how to avoid or fix them... that's a whole 'nother big thread Honestly, I really think the recording you posted is probably just 2 overheads and maybe a kick mic, with lots of bleed through other mics, maybe some room mics. good luck!

[Killspringer]

Are you saying it sounds thin/subdued when you're listening to the drums in the room, or through the mics?

Definitely get good fat drum tones before you even start thinking about mics. That's really the drummer's responsibility. Make sure he's hitting them hard enough to make them sing and push air.

Check out gearslutz.com for more recording specific forum/threads

[D.A.R.K.]

that is a very wide stereo mix, and there seems to be minimal compression going on.
sounds to me like two overheads, probably large diaphragm condensers, spaced wide. you can really hear the distance in the tom rolls and cymbals, channels seem to be panned hard left and right.
hard to tell what the compression type is, could be from hitting the tape hard or on a buss, or directly on each mic channel.
not too fast an attack, but fast enough to grab and get an even hit from all the strikes. there is a quick release and very little to no pumping. when things pile up with cymbal hits it becomes more apparent. perhaps light ratio, 2:1 or 4:1. listening through my studio monitors, there doesn't seem to be any kick mic, or even close mics.
once again, i'll venture to say it's just two mics, definitely overhead wide, light compression.
thanks for the great link.

[bassmanbiff]

Check the sound on sound web site. They have lots of discussions specifically on this topic. Especially helpful can be the Recording SOS section of the magazine. It often deal with poor drum sounds and discusses both how to avoid this and how to fix it.

Sound On Sound | Recording Techniques | Audio Technology | Music Production | Computer Music | Video Media

[Kabal]

Originally Posted by Killspringer

Are you saying it sounds thin/subdued when you're listening to the drums in the room, or through the mics?

Definitely get good fat drum tones before you even start thinking about mics. That's really the drummer's responsibility. Make sure he's hitting them hard enough to make them sing and push air.

Check out gearslutz.com for more recording specific forum/threads

I meant the drums in the CS track sounded thin or at least that's how I would describe it. The drums that my engineer had setup at the time we started talking about tones sounded very beefy/thundering in the room. We didn't do any recording with them because at the time it was the end of the night and they didn't seem to be what I was looking for anyway in terms of tone. I'll head over to gearslutz and see what I can find. Of course if you have any other ideas feel free to let me know about 'em.

[D.A.R.K.]

Check out the forum here as well, one of my favorites:
Tape Op Magazine

[Kabal]

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

that is a very wide stereo mix, and there seems to be minimal compression going on.
sounds to me like two overheads, probably large diaphragm condensers, spaced wide. you can really hear the distance in the tom rolls and cymbals, channels seem to be panned hard left and right.
hard to tell what the compression type is, could be from hitting the tape hard or on a buss, or directly on each mic channel.
not too fast an attack, but fast enough to grab and get an even hit from all the strikes. there is a quick release and very little to no pumping. when things pile up with cymbal hits it becomes more apparent. perhaps light ratio, 2:1 or 4:1. listening through my studio monitors, there doesn't seem to be any kick mic, or even close mics.
once again, i'll venture to say it's just two mics, definitely overhead wide, light compression.
thanks for the great link.

That's a very specific observation! And quite different from Killspringer's POV...hmmm....this grasshopper still has much to learn

Also, you're welcome for the link always glad to share some good music

[John Wentzien]

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

that is a very wide stereo mix, and there seems to be minimal compression going on.
sounds to me like two overheads, probably large diaphragm condensers, spaced wide. you can really hear the distance in the tom rolls and cymbals, channels seem to be panned hard left and right.
hard to tell what the compression type is, could be from hitting the tape hard or on a buss, or directly on each mic channel.
not too fast an attack, but fast enough to grab and get an even hit from all the strikes. there is a quick release and very little to no pumping. when things pile up with cymbal hits it becomes more apparent. perhaps light ratio, 2:1 or 4:1. listening through my studio monitors, there doesn't seem to be any kick mic, or even close mics.
once again, i'll venture to say it's just two mics, definitely overhead wide, light compression.
thanks for the great link.

This is what I'm hearing also...
remember ...more mics will increase the probability of "phase-cancellation"...Less is more a lot of times on the tubs!



edit..a bunch of Led Zeppelin's great drum-cuts were recorded with only 2 mics.

[D.A.R.K.]

Killspringers suggestions are very astute and excellent. I was referring only to the specific recording. Plus i'm sitting in my control room listening on monitors i've been mixing on for about 4 years now.

[Stick_Player]

Find a drummer that plays that well. He'll already have a great sounding kit. That's 80% or more of the sound.

Find a good room with an experienced engineer in this genre... they'll know what to do.

Where do you live?

[Killspringer]

Originally Posted by Kabal

That's a very specific observation! And quite different from Killspringer's POV...hmmm....this grasshopper still has much to learn

Also, you're welcome for the link always glad to share some good music

Ok, got home to my monitors... I'm gonna have to agree with DARK.

Very few mics up here, lots of bleed. Also, I was giving you advice based on thinking you said your drums sounded too thin and were trying to thicken them up. Disregard multiple mic techniques I posted for thickening up thin drums... and go for some killer overheads!

[Kabal]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

Find a drummer that plays that well. He'll already have a great sounding kit. That's 80% or more of the sound.

Find a good room with an experienced engineer in this genre... they'll know what to do.

Where do you live?

Southeast PA about 45 mins. from Philly. I don't think I could afford to pay for a drummer, another engineer, and a really good room. the drummer I have now is doing it pro bono because we go back awayz.

Originally Posted by Killspringer

Ok, got home to my monitors... I'm gonna have to agree with DARK.

Very few mics up here, lots of bleed. Also, I was giving you advice based on thinking you said your drums sounded too thin and were trying to thicken them up. Disregard multiple mic techniques I posted for thickening up thin drums... and go for some killer overheads!

Oh okay miscommunication on my part again Also just for the record I wasn't trying to call anyone out about their recording techniques or anything in my other post. Just in case there was any more miscomm.

[Killspringer]

yeah, if your drums sound too thick, move the mics back. I'm guessing the drums on the Christian Scott record sounded plenty thick in the drummer's position