Copyrights, demo recordings & Facebook

[Michelob_64]

I have a quick question with maybe a not so easy answer. I found part of a thread on this subject but the link was outdated & broken.

Situation:

My band (a 100% cover band) has recorded a demo CD of songs from various artists. We then compiled snipets of selected songs to creat a demo for bars & venues. I know that for the purposes of securing gigs, I don't think this is a legal landmine, please correct me if I'm wrong.

My real question is ... can we post our demo online on a medium such as FaceBook via Reverbnation for the purposes of promotion? When I go to post Revernation says "You MUST own the copyrights or have permission from the copyright holders to do this".

We do not ever plan to sell the recordings but merely use them as a promotional tool.

Can anyone advise? I've searched but really haven't found an answer.

[DWBass]

I think it's fine as long as your band played the music. Secondly, as long as you're not selling your demo, you should be fine. I post my band's covers all the time on Facebook.

[djaydjay]

as long as you don't sell it, you won't have any trouble since the company that owns the right won't have any (financial) interest in it. The worst that could happen is that you'd have to remove it.

Now I can't if what you are doing is "right", don't know much about american laws.

[tonesponge]

I'm an intellectual property attorney, but I don't really practice copyright law or entertainment law, so don't rely on this as legal advice, or thik that I am offering to be your attorney.

I think that it is a violation, and the worst that could happen is that you go to jail and get sued into bankruptcy. Yes, copyright now comes with criminal penalties. They added that just a few years ago.

In paractical terms, it would be highly unusual for them to hunt you down like that, and probably be a public relations nightmare for them. But stuff is happening lately that should make you nervous. For example, http://ipwatchdog.com/2010/12/08/cop...olls/id=13695/

People need to make a living somehow in this economy. Expect the worst.

I think that there is a way to make it legal, and that is take out compulsory licenses for each of the songs. Then you have to have a way to monitor the online interactive streams (I think) and/or downloads, and mail the tiny little checks out every month, or else just plan on paying the late fees if they ever come after you.

Here are a couple of links to help you get started on more info, but you really need to talk to an entertainment lawyer if you don't want to take any chances.

http://www.soundclick.com/solutionce....cfm?subOf=134
http://www.copyright.gov/carp/m200a.pdf

[Stick_Player]

We do not ever plan to sell the recordings

So?

Merely "distributing" without permission fulfills copyright infringement.

Also, "posting" on your website is in fact "publishing".

pub·lish
–verb (used with object)
1. to issue (printed or otherwise reproduced textual or graphic material, computer software, etc.) for sale or distribution to the public.

Whether the copyright holders hunt you down, I can't make a prediction. I would.

Do the legal/right thing. Obtain mechanical licenses, most likely from the Harry Fox Agency. And then pay the fees to the copyright holders - I'm sure you'd like the same done for your original masterpieces.

Clue: Reverbnation says "You MUST own the copyrights or have permission from the copyright holders to do this".

[amosjones]

Those of you who are more familiar with the laws than I can answer this. is there a length of song that can be posted (ie 20 to 30 seconds) that does not violate copyrights? For example Ringtones are not considered a "work" so musicians cannot collect royalties from them.

[rodl2005]

Originally Posted by amosjones

Those of you who are more familiar with the laws than I can answer this. is there a length of song that can be posted (ie 20 to 30 seconds) that does not violate copyrights? For example Ringtones are not considered a "work" so musicians cannot collect royalties from them.

Interested!!!

[Stick_Player]

Those of you who are more familiar with the laws than I can answer this. is there a length of song that can be posted (ie 20 to 30 seconds) that does not violate copyrights?

No.

However, iTunes has taken the position that for 30 second samples, iTunes should NOT pay royalties. Looks like iTunes is getting their way and has now extended the sample length to 90 seconds. I'm sure this isn't completely settled. BMI doesn't like this. ASCAP doesn't seem to care. The four major record companies are with ASCAP. But then, they are all de$perate.

So unless you are iTunes (world's largest music retailer that can take this position by 'force') or a recognized/authorized online music retailer, I'd not post (publish) anyone else's copyrighted works - at any length.

For example Ringtones are not considered a "work" so musicians cannot collect royalties from them.

Maybe half true. I believe that there IS a mechanical license paid (included in the purchase of ringtone) to the composer(s) and publisher(s). There maybe something earned (i.e., one time fee) by the copyright owner of the sound recording, as well. And, like purchasing and playing your legal CD copy (or other legally obtained copy), you have use to limitless "performances", which seems fair.

[bombpop14]

Mechanical royalties ARE generated from ringtones... some artists (songwriters) are making more money off ringtones than cd sales.

What I'm curious about is big tribute bands, and do they have to pay royalties to the songwriter(s).

Sorry to hijack...

[Stick_Player]

What I'm curious about is big tribute bands, and do they have to pay royalties to the songwriter(s).

If you are asking specifically about a tribute band performing at a venue, then the venue is responsible for paying the "performance royalties". These would set by ASCAP/BMI/SESAC dependent on the venue's capacity/audience size. These collected royalties are then distributed to the composer(s) and publisher(s), less collection and administration fees.

Major artists can derive a large income from performing their own material in large venues and then later collecting their performance royalties.

If the tribute band is selling CDs (or some other format) containing the music composed by "the artist being paid tribute to", then the seller of CDs is responsible for those royalty payments (mechanical licensing), to be paid to, most likely, Harry Fox Agency. HFA then distributes to the composer(s) and publisher(s), less collection and administration fees.

Any reputable CD duplicator requires the mechanical licenses before manufacturing product for the customer (i.e., tribute band).

[TylerDurdenPSSC]

You MUST obtain permission from the RECORD LABEL in order to upload any songs that are not originally written and performed by you. This is EASIER than it seems. I had to do so for a high school project a few years ago, and believe me, when you send a request for permission a "yes" or "no" comes back a lot quicker than youd think.

Just make sure you explain that it wont be their artists recording, but rather a cover by you and your band. Let them know its to be used for illustrative purposes, and emphasize that it will generate ZERO profit being hosted on your site. Nas long as you give PROPER credit, you should be fine.

[Michelob_64]

Don't want anyone to get me wrong, I'm all about making sure people get their credit and what is due them. That's why I posted the original question. Then entire demo is 2 minutes long with snipets from 10 different songs.

If I need permission. licensing, etc, that is fine I just need to find out where to start. I'm all about making sure the i's are dotted & the t's crossed and respecting the artists who originally recorded the songs.

[Michelob_64]

Originally Posted by TylerDurdenPSSC

You MUST obtain permission from the RECORD LABEL in order to upload any songs that are not originally written and performed by you.

So you are saying look at the recording label, send each label a letter asking for permission to use the song snipet in our demo?

[cbrophy]

Post your demo...lawyers aren't on the hunt in your Facebook page lookin' to bust you...The worst that happens is, a lawyer is in your Facebook page...wants you to stop and they send a cease and desist. Then all you have to do is....cease and desist!

[Floyd Eye]

It will be removed rather quickly from Reverbnation, but Facebook you will be fine. Technically even when you play a party in your backyard you are required to have an ASCAP license. They have been very busy lately, at least around here.

Getting permission from a band to play their tunes does NOT absolve you from your responsibility to obtain an ASCAP license. Generally, the venues are the ones responsible for this license.

[PDGood]

Originally Posted by amosjones

Those of you who are more familiar with the laws than I can answer this. is there a length of song that can be posted (ie 20 to 30 seconds) that does not violate copyrights? For example Ringtones are not considered a "work" so musicians cannot collect royalties from them.

Royalties are paid for ringtones (though sadly no one is lining up to use MY songs on their ringtone. LOL)

The 30 second sample was not a way to get around the copyright, it was a way to play a sample of a song for someone to hear but not give them the whole song (because many people know how to copy the song without buying it). Permission to do this is in the agreement with itunes, Amazon, etc.

Posting a demo as described may not be strictly legal, however it would really be a stretch to think you'd get into legal trouble. First, you are not selling the songs. You are trying to get work, which if successful, would generate revenue for the license holders (via the club owners who hire your band). Secondly, ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC are very unlikely to see you as a lost revenue stream that they need to pursue. Thirdly, even if they did they would most likely send you a cease and desist order. It just means stop, or you'll get in trouble if you don't.

If you really want to be safe, why not put: Demo available upon request and then when people respond, send a link to where the songs are.

[sbass traveller]

People post full cover songs their bands play on YouTube and I haven't heard about any legal recourse toward any of these groups. Go for it.

Just look at that internet meme of the worst Final Countdown cover... if they can get away with it, then I'm sure you'll have no problem.

[tonesponge]

It's tempting to think that other people who post covers online aren't taking licenses or getting permission, but you never know what they did behind the scenes.

A lot of people seem to think that non-commercial use or deminimus use (a very small amount) is not infringement, but those things are merely factors in determining fair use, and are only applied after the work is determined to fall within one of the statutory fair use categories.

Using a montage of 12 second snippets of cover songs as a demo is the sort of thing that sounds like it ought to be fair use, but I can't think of any fair use category under which it logically fits. The categories are criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research.

Plus, aren't you using it to promote your band? How is that not commercial use? Further, any more than two measures of a song has been found not to be deminimus by the courts in some cases. There's more leeway for categories like criticism, because making a parody can require more substantial use of the work, so it depends on how much is needed to accomplish the purpose under the related fair use category. But it doesn't seem like you have a category that applies at all.

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

[jsbarber]

There is a company called Limelight that can facilitate the mechanical licenses for distribution of digital, physical, and ringtone releases. The licenses for digital download, physical releases, and ringtones are all separate and require their own license and royalty payments.

Whether you buy licenses through Limelight or not I think you might find it useful to peruse their website.

http://www.songclearance.com/page/faq

I did some consulting work for the Recording Industry about ten years ago and received a brief tutorial over breakdfast from their then General Counsel, now their President. The history of the mechanical license is kind of neat. Here is what I remember from my tutorial. Back in the day, when player pianos were popular, there was concern that one player piano company would corner the market by buying up all the rights to distribute recordings (scrolls of paper with holes cut in them) of the songs. So, legislation was enacted stipulating that the first person to record a song has to negotiate with the song writer for the right to record the song. Once that has happened, and presumably the recording has been released, then the song can be licensed through a Compulsory License based on a defined fee schedule, which has changed over the years. This basic mechanism remains in place today, and Harry Fox is one of the agencies/companies that you can obtain the Compulsory License through.

The RIAA takes these infringement issues very seriously. They have a tough job protecting the IP rights of billions of dollars worth of IP that can easily be pirated with today's technology. I have no association with Limelight, or the RIAA these days for that matter, and am interested in this for the same reasons as others on this forum. It appears to me that Limelight offers a simple one-stop-shopping opportunity to keep things legit. For most of us the cost of doing things properly is very minor. It's great that services like those offered by Limelight are available so that the licensing can be done simply and legitimately.

Jim

[Stick_Player]

I just need to find out where to start.

Michelob_64, did you read anything I posted?

For the people here willing to and promoting illegal uses of copyrighted material, YOU are the reason MOST musicians and songwriters earn little to zero money with their music endeavors.

Carry on.