Criticize my demos?

[jive1]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

I'd have to say that many who wrote in this thread appear simply to be here so that they can yell at someone about something. Have you stopped to think about how what you are doing will affect the artist? Do you really want to be the cause of somebody saying, "**** it" and putting the guitar down?

If you can't handle honest critique, then music is the wrong business for you. If you can't handle some guys on a relatively friendly forum giving you their honest opinions, what will you do if you get panned on someone's blog or website? What will you do if you get a bad review of your CD? What will you do if a club owner tells you that they don't want to book you, or an agent says they don't want work with you?

As a performer, whenever you play live or release a recording, you are putting yourself out to be evaluated, whether you mean to or not. Learning to deal with criticism a crucial part of survival in this business.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by jive1

If you can't handle honest critique, then music is the wrong business for you. If you can't handle some guys on a relatively friendly forum giving you their honest opinions, what will you do if you get panned on someone's blog or website? What will you do if you get a bad review of your CD? What will you do if a club owner tells you that they don't want to book you, or an agent says they don't want work with you?

As a performer, whenever you play live or release a recording, you are putting yourself out to be evaluated, whether you mean to or not. Learning to deal with criticism a crucial part of survival in this business.

Those aren't my songs, jive. So how do you know what I can or can't handle? And there was never any question on my part of whether the critique had to be delivered with birthday cake, it just shouldn't be stupid.

I think I gave the OP good advice, and furthermore, made a clear and coherent rationale for why most of the posters in this thread (now including you) are misguided at best.

[jive1]

Here's a great piece of advice I was given that I will pass on to the OP. "Your work should be able to stand on it's own."

If you have to make excuses about your work or have to explain it for someone to appreciate, your work isn't ready for release.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by jive1

Here's a great piece of advice I was given that I will pass on to the OP. "Your work should be able to stand on it's own."

If you have to make excuses about your work or have to explain it for someone to appreciate, your work isn't ready for release.

Yeah, when they release a CD and it sounds like that, then your quote will be applicable. But right now, it's wrong and wrongheaded. Still, not everyone understands the creative process and I guess you can be forgiven if you don't.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

I think I gave the OP good advice, and furthermore, made a clear and coherent rationale for why most of the posters in this thread (now including you) are misguided at best.

Originally Posted by dbd1963

Yeah, when they release a CD and it sounds like that, then your quote will be applicable. But right now, it's wrong and wrongheaded. Still, not everyone understands the creative process and I guess you can be forgiven if you don't.

OK, if the guy was in my band and played it for me asking for my critique, knowing that it's just an idea, not a finished product, I would still ask them to tune it up as it takes too much away from the idea of the song. Unless you're playing atonal music, it's hard to say something sounds good when it's out of tune. I can understand trying to capture an idea. So capture it, and then once you have it, re-record in a more presentable manner.

I didn't know that we were supposed to be collaborators in his songwriting. The OP was asking for critique.

Threads like these remind me of why when a musician asks me for feedback, I'll ask whether they want honest criticism or want me to tell them they sound good.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by jive1

OK, if the guy was in my band and played it for me asking for my critique, knowing that it's just an idea, not a finished product, I would still ask them to tune it up as it takes too much away from the idea of the song. Unless you're playing atonal music, it's hard to say something sounds good when it's out of tune. I can understand trying to capture an idea. So capture it, and then once you have it, re-record in a more presentable manner.

I didn't know that we were supposed to be collaborators in his songwriting. The OP was asking for critique.

Threads like these remind me of why when a musician asks me for feedback, I'll ask whether they want honest criticism or want me to tell them they sound good.

You already said that last bit.

As for the first, though I doubt you bothered with the recording of it that I linked to, Lennon's take of Help had timing and tuning issues. I guess Paul would have told him to get back to him later, eh?

No.

Like I said, creativity is not something everyone has. I do have it, and I can tell you there is enough in what they showed us to make observations useful to the writers, who also have it -- as almost all of us do at that age.

Old age and treachery likes to snuff that out before it proves good..

As for "I didn't know that we were supposed to be collaborators in his songwriting." What's your problem with that, exactly? Is it that you would have nothing useful to tell him?

[jive1]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

As for the first, though I doubt you bothered with the recording of it that I linked to, Lennon's take of Help had timing and tuning issues. I guess Paul would have told him to get back to him later, eh?

They were there together in person, and had a long working relationship. That's different from getting a scratch recording from a stranger. I can't always read the intentions of my wife, let alone a stranger on the internet. But even on "Let It Be', there was tension in the band and honest feedback was given, enough that George Harrison quit and Lennon considered replacing him with Eric Claption.

As for "I didn't know that we were supposed to be collaborators in his songwriting." What's your problem with that, exactly? Is it that you would have nothing useful to tell him?

There's no problem with that, but I don't think that's what the OP was asking for. He was asking for 'tough criticism on everything".

We can't read minds, so the words are the message. Criticism doesn't equal collaboration. Demo doesn't equate a recorded idea.

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

Yeah, when they release a CD and it sounds like that, then your quote will be applicable. But right now, it's wrong and wrongheaded. Still, not everyone understands the creative process and I guess you can be forgiven if you don't.

Wait so are you saying he was only releasing demo or rough tracks here? If he was foolish to do so he opened himself up to being critcized just like he asked for...right?
I highly doubt Lennon released that rough demo for others to hear as most artist would never do.. The OP did and asked to be reviewed for a demo..so what's up?
Trust me I understand and know the creative concept quite well but releasing your rough or demo tracks to be reviewed is plain stupid IMO.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by jive1

There's no problem with that, but I don't think that's what the OP was asking for. He was asking for 'tough criticism on everything".

We can't read minds, so the words are the message. Criticism doesn't equal collaboration. Demo doesn't equate a recorded idea.

You know he's 17 if you've read the thread, so I still think you are out to lunch here.

If you haven't read the thread, why are you posting? (A question that some others ought to have asked themselves too.)

AFTER you heard it and read the thread, if your first response was to talk about the tuning and timing, then I don't think your input was really necessary, as this had been mentioned by the 2nd post, and said most elegantly here by DieterVDW:

Originally Posted by DieterVDW

The timing disturbed me more than the tuning issues. Bad tuning gave it a kind of low-fi feel, didn't raise my hairs.
I am more annoyed by the timing of the bass, quite sloppy ...
Practice your timing man! No drums, so you must be the metronome!
Also the guitar player takes a break, and the next strum often has no relation to the rhythm of the part before, results in uneasy feeling for listener.
You can't afford to mess around, otherwise nobody knows where the song is rhytmically.

Great to see you're excited about your stuff, and there's something there, but the technical difficulties are kind of ruining it right now.

ETA: I had to go back to see exactly what the OP wrote, because I didn't think jive1 quoted him accurately. As it happens, the quote was incomplete; the OP asked for criticism on "All instruments, construction, effects, etc."

Unless I missed something, with the exception of my post, I can't see where anyone talked about elements of song construction or effects.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

You know he's 17 if you've read the thread, so I still think you are out to lunch here.

If you haven't read the thread, why are you posting? (A question that some others ought to have asked themselves too.)

Actually, I was eating lunch. Anyway, OP asked for criticism. I shared some good advice I received when I was a youngster like the OP, and a small criticism. Stuff that's out of tune is distracting to me, even if it's John Lennon doing it. Not trying to be offensive, put anyone down, or destroy the creative process, just sharing an opinion and advice that was asked for. I'll let the OP decide whether it's helpful or not.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by jive1

Here's a great piece of advice I was given that I will pass on to the OP. "Your work should be able to stand on it's own."

If you have to make excuses about your work or have to explain it for someone to appreciate, your work isn't ready for release.

+1

[paganjack]

Well aside from the tuning issue...all i hear is rhythm guitars and bass. Singer? Drums? And if you want to do surf rock you need to bathe everything in REVERB!!! These aren't demos as much as sketches to my ear. You need some more stuff going on.

Keep on working on it, nobody gets it perfect the first time. I like "track 1" best.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by jive1

just sharing an opinion and advice that was asked for.

Originally Posted by Tommygunn

Even if they are just rough demos, I'd love some tough criticism. All instruments, construction, effects, etc.

What's at issue is how people seem to have misperceived what was asked for. You said yourself, "We can't read minds, so the words are the message," yet you missed words, and thereby the message!

It's what happens on internet boards and we will see it again. Many people are not posting to answer questions or solve problems, they are posting for reasons completely unrelated to the post. These folks have a lot of "noise to signal" in their posting - and they post a lot. Just look at their post counts.

I think, as a moderator, you ought to be on the side of putting things right, rather than perpetuating the wrong. I think to a neutral observer, this thread comes off as a bunch of folks jumping on a kid because they can. (And then me pointing that out and getting pushback because, hey it's the internet and FLAMEWAAAR!)

Ask yourself this -- does anyone gain anything from a host of people putting down the young creators?

Best case scenario, seems to me, is that they don't post anymore.

And what might be gained by listening with an ear toward being constructive and helpful? You might get some great music out of it, and you'll certainly get an appreciative artist and a chance to pass on what you know.

If one, as you yourself say, simply cannot listen to music that isn't in its final state, then I don't see what one loses by skipping over the thread, knowing one has nothing to add except a complaint?

[jive1]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

What's at issue is how people seem to have misperceived what was asked for. You said yourself, "We can't read minds, so the words are the message," yet you missed words, and thereby the message!

It's what happens on internet boards and we will see it again. Many people are not posting to answer questions or solve problems, they are posting for reasons completely unrelated to the post. These folks have a lot of "noise to signal" in their posting - and they post a lot. Just look at their post counts.

I think, as a moderator, you ought to be on the side of putting things right, rather than perpetuating the wrong. I think to a neutral observer, this thread comes off as a bunch of folks jumping on a kid because they can. (And then me pointing that out and getting pushback because, hey it's the internet and FLAMEWAAAR!)

Ask yourself this -- does anyone gain anything from a host of people putting down the young creators?

Best case scenario, seems to me, is that they don't post anymore.

And what might be gained by listening with an ear toward being constructive and helpful? You might get some great music out of it, and you'll certainly get an appreciative artist and a chance to pass on what you know.

If one, as you yourself say, simply cannot listen to music that isn't in its final state, then I don't see what one loses by skipping over the thread, knowing one has nothing to add except a complaint?

I offered two of the most useful pieces of advice I have received and a small critique. I'm sorry it didn't meet your approval.

[ErebusBass]

Wow, somebody LOVES to argue with the internet.

[jive1]

I would like to point out that this is the band management forum. If someone asks for critique of a demo, its a safe assumption that it would be meant for presentation in some way whether its to a potential band member, gig, promoter, agent, etc. Otherwise, threads of this nature belong in recordings.

If the OP would like, this can be moved to recordings, where it would probably be evaluated in a different context.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by bassbully

Wait so are you saying he was only releasing demo or rough tracks here? If he was foolish to do so he opened himself up to being critcized just like he asked for...right?
I highly doubt Lennon released that rough demo for others to hear as most artist would never do.. The OP did and asked to be reviewed for a demo..so what's up?
Trust me I understand and know the creative concept quite well but releasing your rough or demo tracks to be reviewed is plain stupid IMO.

I think your analogy is a bit off. The Beatles did show their demos to other musicians -- especially Paul, who was a little insecure about his writing. We are other musicians here, not the general public.

And TalkBass is pretty well moderated so it's not as if the OP would have known he was jumping into a sharkpit. I'm just pointing out that this is one issue that hardly ever gets treated at face value. I couldn't tell you why, but I can point it out.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by jive1

If the OP would like, this can be moved to recordings, where it would probably be evaluated in a different context.

I can't say that I understand why this wasn't the first thing done. From what I've seen around here, threads get moved to where the mods think they should be, whether the OP likes it or not.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

I can't say that I understand why this wasn't the first thing done. From what I've seen around here, threads get moved to where the mods think they should be, whether the OP likes it or not.

Because it had 'demo' in it. If you had issue with this being in the wrong forum, you should have reported it. It would have been much more helpful.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by ErebusBass

Wow, somebody LOVES to argue with the internet.

Can't say I get your perspective -- there is an argument going on in this thread. Are you saying the issue would be better served if no one carried it out? Or are you saying you know me to be a serial internet arguer? Because I don't think there's evidence of that outside this particular thread.