DIFFICULTY OF POP BASSLINES

[guitardefector]

Hello bass community. Maybe this is my personal observation or some of you have noticed it too. Lately when I've tried to learn basslines from easy listening/mellow pop from the 60s and 70s, I've discovered that they're quite complicated and intricate. Don't laugh, but I've been trying to work out some basslines from the likes of Neil Diamond, Seals & Crofts, ABBA for weeks now which are really frustrating. One tune, "Groovy Situation" by Gene Chandler goes all over the fretboard and is harder to tame than a circus lion. I always thought jazz and rock had the most difficult basslines but I guess I underestimated pop music?? Any similar experiences?

[The Lurker]

Just FWIW, a lot of the guys who played in the studio bands for pop tunes back then were jazz players by extraction.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by The Lurker

Just FWIW, a lot of the guys who played in the studio bands for pop tunes back then were jazz players by extraction.

+1

Plus, back in the day, studio bands were more formal in a standard notation kind of way, strings and orchestras not uncommon, and the bass line may have even been **gulp** charted out!

[guitardefector]

Thanks gents. Yeah, I know that Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones went through that school of hard knocks as well by being handed a score and told to play part X and Y. But Chuck Rainey and Carol Kaye did the same thing and somehow their stuff feels more attainable to an up and comer like me?? Oh well.

[The Lurker]

Originally Posted by guitardefector

Thanks gents. Yeah, I know that Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones went through that school of hard knocks as well by being handed a score and told to play part X and Y. But Chuck Rainey and Carol Kaye did the same thing and somehow their stuff feels more attainable to an up and comer like me?? Oh well.

Actually, one of Jones' pre-Zeppelin gigs was as a church choir director, which included arranging classical music for voice performance.

The other thing is, some guys just played more complex stuff than others.

[JonnyAngle]

Was some of it done on keyboards as well?

[Bassorama57]

Some of it is very complicated - at least if you're not familiar with it. If you really want complicated, try some Rocco Prestia (Tower of Power) - "You're Still A Young Man," as an example. If you have a transcription of the figure (riff), just work on it in bits and pieces very slowly, and analyze how you're playing it.
A fiver generally cuts down on the lateral movement up & down the fretboard, though most of the older stuff was done on 4-stringers. But again, break it down into very granular pieces and slowly work on form, building speed in each individual one or two bar figures. The break on "Rock Steady" has kicked my butt for years, but that's just because I'm old and arthritic.
Now if you don't have a transcription and are trying to nug it out from the recording, that'll take a while - suggest a bass trainer or "amazing slow-downer" software.

[Snaxster]

Hello. Others have already replied to mention the more formal culture of songcraft and instrumental arrangement of that time. I agree. And I would add that related to this was the lyricism that was central to the writing, arranging and recording of songs then.

Among bassists of that era, James Jamerson most famously set the standard for spontaneously reharmonizing the bass part in a song form (that he was also an unparalleled groove player was the mark of his genius); and Paul McCartney brought melodic basslines to rock and pop rock (one of the many facets of his brilliant songcraft.)

But from Motown and Philly to Abbey Road, to the Brill Building, and on out to every melodic pop contender of the era, everyone knew that the song was king. Each contributor, from writers and producers to lead singers and every backing player, understood their duty to help create as perfect a song product as possible.

I think that for players, one earmark of this credo was to make everything sound easy. This is why the basslines you mention are deceptively simple-sounding: the players and arrangers used all their knowledge and skill to make bass parts that supported the lyrical shapes within the song products, and the players rendered those parts to be as unobtrusive as possible.

As for learning those historic parts today, I suggest that if you approach them as the original players did, you will more easily see their logic (that they exist only for the song product) and be able to learn them more quickly.

Good luck!

Snaxster

[JimK]

Originally Posted by guitardefector

Hello bass community. Maybe this is my personal observation or some of you have noticed it too. Lately when I've tried to learn basslines from easy listening/mellow pop from the 60s and 70s, I've discovered that they're quite complicated and intricate. Don't laugh, but I've been trying to work out some basslines from the likes of Neil Diamond, Seals & Crofts, ABBA for weeks now which are really frustrating. One tune, "Groovy Situation" by Gene Chandler goes all over the fretboard and is harder to tame than a circus lion. I always thought jazz and rock had the most difficult basslines but I guess I underestimated pop music?? Any similar experiences?

I agree with you.
Many of those tunes I listened to as a kid...that I maybe later dismissed as I moved on towards Hard/Heavy Rock...then R&B/Soul/Funk...then Jazz...I later came back to & wow...even some of the bubblegum things like "One Bad Apple" (add that one to your Gene Chandler tune) had busy, intricate lines.

[jerry]

Most also being jazz cats, I think they were given and trusted with a lot more freedom to improvise parts over chord charts too. The ghost notes and chromatic walking that cats like Jamerson employed would probably by brushed out of today's pro-tooled world.

[BigOldHarry]

Originally Posted by The Lurker

Just FWIW, a lot of the guys who played in the studio bands for pop tunes back then were jazz players by extraction.

Yup. Some of the most boring music back in the day was played by *great* musicians who brought very tasty chops/licks to dismal music. Heck, that's a good portion of the joy of playing old covers.

And yes, it does seem that starting around 1980, "pop" music got very boring to play, in part because the musicianship seems to have degraded.

And another thing: Turn that danged music down and get off my lawn, you kids!

[guitardefector]

Originally Posted by JimK

I agree with you.
Many of those tunes I listened to as a kid...that I maybe later dismissed as I moved on towards Hard/Heavy Rock...then R&B/Soul/Funk...then Jazz...I later came back to & wow...even some of the bubblegum things like "One Bad Apple" (add that one to your Gene Chandler tune) had busy, intricate lines.

Wow! "One Bad Apple"!!! The Osmonds!I actually had that 45 as a kid long time ago. Still remember the MGM lion on it. Hilarious!!! Yeah, even some bubblegum stuff can make your life hell in the bass dept. One bass line I've been struggling with for some time now is "Sunday will never be the same" by Spanky and Our Gang. I'll nail it one day. Thanks, Jim.

[Holdsg]

"I want you back" by Jackson Five, always been a challenging line for me, to get the timing right. Yes, I'm a white guy. Also love "Stomp" by Brothers Jhonson. No way I could ever get the slap solo, still sounds cutting edge to this day.

[JimK]

Seriuosly...re-visit "One Bad Apple".

Spanky & Our Gang were cool...cover bands in that day had better had their vocals dept. in order.
Another: The Friends Of Distinction's "Grazing In The Grass".

Three Dog Night (Joe Schermie) had some nice R&B-ish lines.

Check out Joe Tex's "I Gotcha".

[guitardefector]

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

Yup. Some of the most boring music back in the day was played by *great* musicians who brought very tasty chops/licks to dismal music. Heck, that's a good portion of the joy of playing old covers.

And yes, it does seem that starting around 1980, "pop" music got very boring to play, in part because the musicianship seems to have degraded.

And another thing: Turn that danged music down and get off my lawn, you kids!

Yep, BOH! Musicianship in pop has not aged well.

[JimK]

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

And yes, it does seem that starting around 1980, "pop" music got very boring to play, in part because the musicianship seems to have degraded.

Well, about that time MTV was in full force...and New Wave was big & 'different' than '70s Rock/Disco (in fact, some of it was a fusion of Rock-Disco-Ska).
What I have noticed-
Looking at videos & TV performances from the '60s & '70s...even today, the performers look "seasoned" (Mature? Like some dues had been paid?). Watching what's out there 2-day? I dunno...something is not there (no dues paid?).

And another thing: Turn that danged music down and get off my lawn, you kids!

Yes...out comes the hose.

[guitardefector]

Originally Posted by Holdsg

"I want you back" by Jackson Five, always been a challenging line for me, to get the timing right. Yes, I'm a white guy. Also love "Stomp" by Brothers Jhonson. No way I could ever get the slap solo, still sounds cutting edge to this day.

BTW, I can't remember which issue in 2009, but Bass Player magazine has the complete Louis Johnson transcription of "Stomp". Research it. But yeah, I've been working on the slap part to no avail.

[guitardefector]

Really amazing replies from everyone! All I can do is quote Bonasera from Godfather I, "Gadfatha, you understand everything".