"I can't hear the bass"

Adam Bomb · #1 09-09-2011, 03:08 PM

I record my band's rehearsals and put the best ones on our SoundCloud page.

This is as much a philosophical question as a technical one: What do y'all think of ppl who listen to the recordings on, say, your web page, and tell you they couldn't hear any bass, and you ask them what they were listening on, and they tell you little itty bitty computer speakers with no sub?

In a perfect world - or, maybe, if I was a better engineer - there would be a mix that would be optimal for both the crappy 'puter speaker set and the fancy headphones set. But when I boost the bass so much that some harmonic of my instrument is audible through those tin cans, there is too much bass in my fancy phones.

A word on what I mean by "too much bass". I mean basically nothing but bass. This is how much bass I like in my music: Whenever possible, I personally *play* the bass that is in a song. And so for me to say something has too much bass really means that it is unlistenable.

And why should I mix in a way that gives anything but pleasure to the people who take the time and expense to listen to music through either non-crappy speakers or headphones of any quality? How is that not my target audience?

Yeah, if Phil Spector listens to my SoundCloud page through crappy prison speakers and tells me, "I couldn't hear the bass", then that's my loss. I guess.

Is there a frequency that can get both jobs done? I like 250Hz...

--Bomb

**jmattbassplaya** · #2 09-09-2011, 03:17 PM

IME as a listener of music on crappy laptop speakers - no - but I could be wrong. I can rarely hear the bass in most music, and on the ones I can the bass is either very hi-fi sounding, playing by itself, or the bassist is playing high on the neck. I wouldn't tell your fans, "You better buy decent speakers then," but I think that's what it ultimately comes down to.

onosson · #3 09-09-2011, 03:27 PM

I beg to differ. You should bear in mind where listeners are going to be listening to your music, and use as many different systems as you can to gauge your mixes. I was fortunate enough to be in a band that had a few songs mixed by an in-demand professional mixing engineer at a world-famous studio where the likes of Michael Jackson etc. had recorded. He made a point to bring in a tiny little portable radio with one speaker, and had it plugged in sitting in the middle of the board. From time to time, he would switch off all the other studio monitors, and listen to the mix through that mono radio.

If your mix doesn't sound good on a crappy kitchen radio, in an old car stereo, through iPod headphones, or tinny computer speakers, it's not going to sound good to your audience - because that's where many of them will hear your music.

HolmeBass · #4 09-09-2011, 03:46 PM

Onosson has a good point, but there are other ways to get the bass in the mix than just EQ and overall level. Using compression, on the bass and on the bus mix can help. BBE/maximizer processing can also help. It's an art to get a great mix that sounds great on good speakers, but still translates on crummy audio. In the end, you will lose a bit of bass- but realize that people listening on crummy audio usually crank up the bass control if they have one, say on an old car radio.

jordak · #5 09-09-2011, 04:08 PM

mix it on studio monitors. Anyone who ever TRIES to hear the bass in music they listen to know that even cheap headphones such as these Skullcandy INK'D headphones - In-ear ear-bud, Binaural - Black are a huge step up from typical laptop OEM speakers.

djaydjay · #6 09-09-2011, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onosson

I beg to differ. You should bear in mind where listeners are going to be listening to your music, and use as many different systems as you can to gauge your mixes. I was fortunate enough to be in a band that had a few songs mixed by an in-demand professional mixing engineer at a world-famous studio where the likes of Michael Jackson etc. had recorded. He made a point to bring in a tiny little portable radio with one speaker, and had it plugged in sitting in the middle of the board. From time to time, he would switch off all the other studio monitors, and listen to the mix through that mono radio.

If your mix doesn't sound good on a crappy kitchen radio, in an old car stereo, through iPod headphones, or tinny computer speakers, it's not going to sound good to your audience - because that's where many of them will hear your music.

I agree with most of what you said, but I don't know if you realize how crappy some tinny computer speakers are. They are way worse than a little radio, some of them aren't probably even able to reproduce a bass frequency.

That beeing said, it's about making the music sound good. Which doesn't necessary mean that you have to hear the bass

maxgrant · #7 09-09-2011, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Bomb

Is there a frequency that can get both jobs done? I like 250Hz...

--Bomb

250 hz is the mud frequency. I remove it from my mixes.

Boost your mids. Find a frequency that meshes. Here are two exampkles. The first is my Jazz bass.

eq-Jazz by BoojumMusic, on Flickr

http://soundcloud.com/maxgrant/master-wrappedupinyou

This is my Rickenbacker.

eqbass by BoojumMusic, on Flickr

http://soundcloud.com/maxgrant/stranger-clip

It's pretty easy to hear these through laptop speakers. You should be using reference monitors to mix. You can't really achieve a completely portable mix without them. We mixed on KRK-5's, which are about $150 each and sound incredible.

**jmattbassplaya** · #8 09-09-2011, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onosson

I beg to differ. You should bear in mind where listeners are going to be listening to your music, and use as many different systems as you can to gauge your mixes. I was fortunate enough to be in a band that had a few songs mixed by an in-demand professional mixing engineer at a world-famous studio where the likes of Michael Jackson etc. had recorded. He made a point to bring in a tiny little portable radio with one speaker, and had it plugged in sitting in the middle of the board. From time to time, he would switch off all the other studio monitors, and listen to the mix through that mono radio.

If your mix doesn't sound good on a crappy kitchen radio, in an old car stereo, through iPod headphones, or tinny computer speakers, it's not going to sound good to your audience - because that's where many of them will hear your music.

Maybe it's just me, but I listen to the majority of my music either in my car or through the headphones on my iPod. I definitely like the idea of making the music sound as good as possible through all speaker types, but I don't think it's really possible to get a good bass response through laptop speakers.

Pilgrim · #9 09-09-2011, 04:31 PM

You should keep in mind what your listeners will be using as speakers

BUT..................

There's a point where it's useless to modify the music. Standard computer speakers are totally incapable of reproducing bass, so they are "bassically" irrelevant.

hdracer · #10 09-09-2011, 04:41 PM

Tell them to buy the CD.

Bread Knife · #11 09-09-2011, 04:47 PM

Use that MaxxBass thing and optimize your recordings for computer speakers. That's all people really listen through, anyway.

Mayers · #12 09-09-2011, 04:54 PM

Well I think that if your bass sound is just boom boom boom that can only be heard with a sub it is normal ... but if your sound cut through or have a treble presence that make you audible not just felt, I think you have a winner.

Adam Bomb · #13 09-09-2011, 07:12 PM

Thank you all for your responses! There are different viewpoints but it appears that I asked the question properly.

Yes, back in the day, when I was a front man and we made demos, we always from time to time listened to the tape or whatever on a crappy boom box. But I agree that typical computer speakers (Or mine at least, the ones without the sub) were not even built to reproduce most of the good frequencies. I used to could make a demo sound good on both the studio monitors and the crappy box, but I have not been able to make a mix sound good on both my crappy putor speakers and my sweet phones.

Also, we are talking major lo-fi action here. A handheld Tascam recorder and 5 minutes on Audacity per track. Basically the other end of the spectrum from MJ Country.

Here is one of the actual tracks I got "I can't hear the bass" on:

Wagon Wheel

?

--Bomb

runmikeyrun · #14 09-09-2011, 10:34 PM

A good mix won't SOUND GOOD on every type of listening device, but the key is that it should sound THE SAME on every device. If you have the right balance you'll be able to hear all the instruments no matter what you're listening to it on. When we record an album we take the "final" mix home and play it in our cars, on crappy stereos, computers, laptops, through headphones, etc. If it's not working on something we fix it.

Bass is tricky because depending on the type of music it can be hard to have it "heard" on an album. It also depends on your bass tone- clean, OD, distortion, etc. Ideally you want it to sit above the kick drum and beneath the guitars. Imagine a mason applying mortar between two horizontally laid bricks... you want to fill the gap but not slop over on either of the bricks.

Some music has a lot of kick drum, or the guitarists are cranking their lows to 10. Also, if you're playing at blistering speeds and/or playing the exact same thing as the guitars it will be harder to "hear" your playing. Keep in mind most listeners aren't listening for the bass, nor do they understand what the right amount of bass is or how it should sound relative to the rest of the instruments. We listen critically to recordings and I find i'm always subconsciously listening to the bass, while most average non-musicians are focusing on the vocals and guitar leads. People don't always know why something doesn't sound right, they just know it sounds weird.

In my eternal quest to not be the guy-no-one-realizes-is-even-playing-until-i-make-a-mistake I make sure I adjust my tone to sit in between the kick and guitars. I have a pronounced low-mid hump to accomplish this. I get a nice fuzzy buzz going that isn't muddy and doesn't get lost in the kick drum, yet still sits below the guitars so you can actually hear it. I also play somewhat different parts than the guitar about half the time. I've said this before... I don't think it's something that fans so much as "hear" but just know when it feels right.

Adam Bomb · #15 09-13-2011, 01:45 AM

So, just to close the loop on this, I have decided that people who listen to music through tiny tinny speakers and then complain to me that they couldn't hear the bass are silly, and as such are best politely disregarded. I will continue to mix as bassy as still sounds good on phones.

Thanks all!

--Bomb

DWBass · #16 09-13-2011, 06:15 AM

Meh! Just put a note on the page saying "best listened using headphones or hi-fi sound system".

maxgrant · #17 09-13-2011, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Bomb

I will continue to mix as bassy as still sounds good on phones.

I don't mean to harp, but you shouldn't mix on phones at all unless you are fine-tuning the airplane-flying-through-my-head sound. Seriously. Use flat reference monitors. Mix at around 83 DB. Check your mix on smaller speakers if you want, but if you do it right you only have to do it once.

But you can't mix on headphones and expect it to work anywhere but on those headphones.

Floridabwoy · #18 09-13-2011, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onosson

If your mix doesn't sound good on a crappy kitchen radio, in an old car stereo, through iPod headphones, or tinny computer speakers, it's not going to sound good to your audience - because that's where many of them will hear your music.

This. Try boosting the mids and compressing the holy hell out of your mix. MP3 adds compression as well. You need to listen to it in different applications before releasing it.

maxgrant · #19 09-13-2011, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floridabwoy

This. Try boosting the mids and compressing the holy hell out of your mix. MP3 adds compression as well. You need to listen to it in different applications before releasing it.

Yes.

Most people mistakenly think the "smile" eq is how things are made to sound good. If you are mixing on some big home theater stereo yeah, you can make it sound good like that. But to make your mix portable, the mids are actually supposed to be the loudest part. Let your listener decide to boost the treble and bass. The frequency band that your ears use to decide if something is 'loud' is actually in the middle, around 1000k as far as I can tell (this is gleaned from observation).

So I actually EQ a master mix more like a frown. Tone down the 60hz and lower. If you want boomy, shelf off from 40 hz (the low E on a bass). Especially if you are a bass player you are going to tend to mix yourself higher. This is your chance to make it sound like a band not a bass player's tape. If I am mixing a song in Drop D tuning I pull the shelf back to 35hz (the approximate frequency of a lowered D) so that it actually comes through, but I still don't let it be as high as the 100hz. And I do pull down the 250 because it is what makes things sound muddy.

Too much compression is going to give you a weird pumping feel, where the mix seems to fly away from you and back at you with each bass drum hit. And of course, brickwall limiting will make the music audible but the mental picture I get when I over-limit is of looking into a store where all the items on all the shelves are pressed against the window -- there's no depth to the music.

rockstarbassist · #20 09-13-2011, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runmikeyrun

A good mix won't SOUND GOOD on every type of listening device, but the key is that it should sound THE SAME on every device. If you have the right balance you'll be able to hear all the instruments no matter what you're listening to it on. When we record an album we take the "final" mix home and play it in our cars, on crappy stereos, computers, laptops, through headphones, etc. If it's not working on something we fix it.

This.