I need more volume in the mix!

chaseman · #1 05-24-2011, 01:04 PM

My band (a 3 piece) recently recorded our first album, and I just got a copy back. The engineer said he wanted to know of anything that we thought might require changing.

So I sat down and listened to each song a good few times, and one thing stood out to me. I can barely hear the bass! I have listened through speakers, quality headphones, and cheap earphones, and it's the same story.

I know the bass needs turning up in almost all of the songs, but I've realised if that happens, the sound will become muddier. So is it possible for the techie to turn up the treble and high-mid frequencies for more bass clarity?

When I suggested that the bass nearly wasn't audible to my band mates, they agreed on some songs, but thought most of them were fine. Is it normal for me to think the bass needs turning up? We play RHCP style songs mostly, with some mixture of styles, and I have worked hard on making my lines interesting and complex, and to have them ignored would frustrate me.

Ah well, I'm only a bassist. I don't need to be heard, because I'm simple and only have 4 strings.

Thanks in advance for any advice

Vakmere · #2 05-24-2011, 01:13 PM

2 things come to mind. The other people in your band wont be able to hear themselves if they turn up the bass or you are using a poor quality bass that makes too much noise in the playback if turned up. Typically its the bass and drums out front in every RHCP tune I've ever heard or just about every tune I've ever heard. Re-do the takes on the tracks with just you , make a copy and post it here.

Also in your last sentence you sort of give in to the idea of not being heard. Whats it gonna be bro?

Unrepresented · #3 05-24-2011, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaseman

My band (a 3 piece) recently recorded our first album, and I just got a copy back. The engineer said he wanted to know of anything that we thought might require changing.

So I sat down and listened to each song a good few times, and one thing stood out to me. I can barely hear the bass! I have listened through speakers, quality headphones, and cheap earphones, and it's the same story.

I know the bass needs turning up in almost all of the songs, but I've realised if that happens, the sound will become muddier. So is it possible for the techie to turn up the treble and high-mid frequencies for more bass clarity?

When I suggested that the bass nearly wasn't audible to my band mates, they agreed on some songs, but thought most of them were fine. Is it normal for me to think the bass needs turning up? We play RHCP style songs mostly, with some mixture of styles, and I have worked hard on making my lines interesting and complex, and to have them ignored would frustrate me.

Ah well, I'm only a bassist. I don't need to be heard, because I'm simple and only have 4 strings.

Thanks in advance for any advice

Absolutely. There are a couple basic tools for choosing how "present" an instrument is in the mix:

1) Volume - "turning something up"

2) Equalization - Frequency balance between instruments. There are certain frequency ranges that make something sound louder at certain volumes. The mixer absolutely can adjust your recording to increase the relative frequency mix of your instrument and adjust the overall volume of your instrument to compensate. Or, conversely, they can lower certain frequencies in the other instruments that are competing with you for presence.

3) Compression, while technically this will typically lower your actual output volume, it can make you sound louder when used properly.

4) Delay and reverb (or the lack thereof). These effects typically pull instruments "back" in the mix without necessarily lowering their volume. If the guitars get a touch more reverb, it may make your bass more "up front" in the mix.

Yes, there's ways to make your instrument "louder" but typically it's a compromise with the other instruments. The mix will need to be adjusted to other instruments if any of these are applied to you.

teleharmonium · #4 05-24-2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaseman

I know the bass needs turning up in almost all of the songs, but I've realised if that happens, the sound will become muddier. So is it possible for the techie to turn up the treble and high-mid frequencies for more bass clarity?

Sure, it's possible. Depending on the rest of the mix, it might lead to the need for other things to change too, but there's very likely already a parametric eq on the bass which could have it's settings changed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaseman

When I suggested that the bass nearly wasn't audible to my band mates, they agreed on some songs, but thought most of them were fine. Is it normal for me to think the bass needs turning up?

Oh yeah, that's normal.

My advice is to A/B it to other recordings in the same style, and sleep on it, and get some advice from people who aren't in the band and aren't bass players.

In fact the policy I prefer to have is that no band member can suggest turning themselves up. They can only suggest turning other people up, or themselves down. Because, especially with younger musicians or those that haven't done a lot of recording, everybody will ask for themselves to be turned up.

Recording projects of this type have a gauntlet that comes near the end of the project, when the band members hear it in near complete form, and there's this disconnect between what they imagined (which may or may not have been possible, realistic, or desirable) and what they are hearing. Not to apply this judgment to you, since I have no idea if you are right... but it's usually pure egomania.

At this stage, I've seen all kinds of craziness, from a drummer suddenly deciding that he needs to add echoey improvised vocals to songs that have never had them before, to singers that want to redo everything or drench it with effects, guitarists that want to double all their lines, to bands breaking up, etc etc. Whatever disciplined decisions the producer may have carefully negotiated are suddenly revisited and battles have to be fought all over again. Hours of time are suddenly declared wasted, or the project suddenly mushrooms in scope beyond all energy, personal goodwill, studio availability, and budgetary constraints.

Beware !

Testing_123 · #5 05-24-2011, 01:32 PM

It can help to cut lower frequencies from guitar (rather than raise high freqs on bass) -- carve out some bass space where the stringed instruments overlap. If you do this, the guitar might sound a bit thinner solo, but no one's going to hear it solo on the recording, right? Carving out some lows from the guitars can make a huge difference in helping the bass become more prominent without muddying the full mix.

(Many engineers automatically do this when mixing, but it's worth checking.)

+1 to the suggestion of A/B'ing with similar music that you feel was recorded and mixed well. Do this on your own and as a group. If -- after comparing to the reference music -- your parts still sound lower than they should be, you can point to the reference recordings as examples of a better-balanced bass sound.

------------

It's worth taking the time to make sure EVERYONE is satisfied with the final mixes. If you don't, it's going to eat at you every time you listen to the recording. Forever.

chaseman · #6 05-24-2011, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vakmere

Also in your last sentence you sort of give in to the idea of not being heard. Whats it gonna be bro?

Sorry, the sarcasm appears to have gone missing from this line

BigOldHarry · #7 05-24-2011, 01:37 PM

Many years ago, I was with a group that did a CD - same problem.

The engineer was happy to listen to my observation, but not being particularly skilled, he just turned up my volume AND THEN he boosted the bass EQ. The CD was suddenly really annoyingly boomy - but every seemed okay with it.

Looking back, what I should have had him do is bump my mids - the bass I was using had a fairly scooped sound (PJ w/EMGs) so a bit of a mid bump would have likely put me right where I needed to be. Alas...

Joe_K · #8 05-24-2011, 01:50 PM

I think it is normal when starting out to react to hearing all the subtleties of your tone and playing being masked in even the best mixed rock recording. Especially given the kind of song it is. A thick wall of doubled and distorted guitars vs. a shimmering overdriven one will change how much of the bass tone is masked, but the most important bass fundamentals should always be there regardless.

What I like to do when mixing is actually listen to a verse and then go back and mute the bass and listen again (this is what it is actually like to "not be heard"). Now can you hear the important impact the bass was having in the mix? If so, then it's more likely you just want to hear yourself better. If not, then adjustment is probably required. That adjustment doesn't necessarily mean simply turning up the volume, but is often about equalization.

But you have to be careful making to drastic a change at the last minute, like BigOldHarry said. It is very easy to go from a slight deficiency to overbearing without noticing until later.

Unrepresented · #9 05-24-2011, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

Many years ago, I was with a group that did a CD - same problem.

The engineer was happy to listen to my observation, but not being particularly skilled, he just turned up my volume AND THEN he boosted the bass EQ. The CD was suddenly really annoyingly boomy - but every seemed okay with it.

Looking back, what I should have had him do is bump my mids - the bass I was using had a fairly scooped sound (PJ w/EMGs) so a bit of a mid bump would have likely put me right where I needed to be. Alas...

+1. The first thing my band does when mixing is to roll off the lowest of the low end from my bass to leave room for the kick drum. and then typically remove a touch of lows from the guitars to make some room for the bass.

Testing_123 · #10 05-24-2011, 02:04 PM

chaseman, how was the bass recorded?

Mic(s) on a cab, DI, combination? Were tracks recorded live as a band, or each element recorded discrete (isolated)?

Don't forget to check the overall mixes in MONO as well as stereo to make sure there are no phase issues interfering with sounds. Most engineers are well-versed in phase issues and know how to prevent them, but (sadly) there are those out there who have little clue about the concept.

chaseman · #11 05-24-2011, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Testing_123

chaseman, how was the bass recorded?

Mic(s) on a cab, DI, combination? Were tracks recorded live as a band, or each element recorded discrete (isolated)

We recorded the instruments live, but it was me and the drummer in one room and the guitarist/singer in a different room. I was a bit sceptical of a live recording, but we didn't have that much time to record in. I was both DI'd and mic'd, but I don't know what the engineer did with the signals when he was mixing. I was happy with the tone of my bass through the amp and the headphones, but listening back it sounds totally different, i.e. bassy and muddy compared to bright and snappy

Testing_123 · #12 05-25-2011, 04:21 PM

Quote:

We recorded the instruments live, but it was me and the drummer in one room and the guitarist/singer in a different room. I was a bit sceptical of a live recording, but we didn't have that much time to record in. I was both DI'd and mic'd, but I don't know what the engineer did with the signals when he was mixing.

I'm no guru on phase stuff, but any chance the drum mics were picking up some bass sounds from the room that could be interfering with your core bass sound (from your mic'd cab) in the mix?

As mentioned earlier, make sure to do some critical comparative listening with a few reference CDs of really good sounding stuff that's reasonably similar to your band's music. A great help for "baselining" your mixes.