JB's controversial lyric poll (psst - i may have been wrong!)

[cabcreaser]

What is the lyric on James Brown's classic "The Payback"?

[jerry]

That's a easy one......crazy.

[cabcreaser]

Originally Posted by jerry

That's a easy one......crazy.

that's what I thought as well, but some in the "Randy Jackson Alchemy" thread in the strings section seem to differ.

[gkbass13]

that song is ka-razily funky.

[cabcreaser]

Originally Posted by gkbass13

that song is ka-razily funky.

now that we can all agree upon

[bburk]

You just have to listen to how he pronounces 'karate'. He doesn't do the long 'e' sound on the last syllable. He does the 'ah' sound, just like he does for 'crazy'

'I don't know KA-rat-AH, but I know KA-raz-AH!'

I have very little doubt about this one.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by bburk

You just have to listen to how he pronounces 'karate'. He doesn't do the long 'e' sound on the last syllable. He does the 'ah' sound, just like he does for 'crazy'

'I don't know KA-rat-AH, but I know KA-raz-AH!'

I have very little doubt about this one.

You're on the right track but...

There's no long "e" in karate. That's because Karate is commonly pronounced Kuh-Rah-Tay. No long "e" in sight.

Stretching "Kuh-Ray zuh" to equal "Kuh-Ray-Zee"? That's just "kuh-ray-zee". If he had said "kuh-ray-zay" I could understand the confusion. He didn't.

Like I said, I guess you had to be there.

[RHFusillo]

If you listen to it carefully, he's saying "'Cause I speak of the Pompetus of Love."

[cabcreaser]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

You're on the right track but...

There's no long "e" in karate. That's because Karate is commonly pronounced Kuh-Rah-Tay. No long "e" in sight.

Stretching "Kuh-Ray zuh" to equal "Kuh-Ray-Zee"? That's just "kuh-ray-zee". If he had said "kuh-ray-zay" I could understand the confusion. He didn't.

Like I said, I guess you had to be there.

now, your argument is almost silly. Clearly JB pronounces karate with the long e sound which rhymes with Kuh-ray-zee, regardless of how the word may be commonly pronounced.

And please quit with the "you had to be there" stuff, it adds nothing to your argument since you were not in the studio when the song was recorded.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by cabcreaser

now, your argument is almost silly. Clearly JB pronounces karate with the long e sound which rhymes with Kuh-ray-zee, regardless of how the word may be commonly pronounced.

He doesn't pronounce it on the track with a long "e", does he? Have you listened to the track or not?

And please quit with the "you had to be there" stuff, it adds nothing to your argument since you were not in the studio when the song was recorded.

I'm talking about being around when the track came out. Understanding the language at that time. Knowing the circumstances. If you think being a contemporary of Brown adds nothing to this debate, cool. In any event, here's something to actually think about (or not of course) along with a link to the track so you can actually hear what you've been READING about:


from the string thread:

Originally Posted by cabcreaser

Every lyric site that I have checked states the lyrics as ka-razy, however I don't think that will be enough to convince those on the ka-razor side (I know that lyric websites are notoriously inaccurate at times).

Of the 10 or so sites I have seen, only one had the lyric written as ka-razor.

I guess one out of ten ain't bad.

Man, this must be what it felt like when the Catholic church was arguing the texts that would later comprise the Bible (. . . and yes, that is a joke).

It's far from being that complicated. Anyone really familiar with how Brown spoke and sang who actually thinks he's saying kuh-ray-zuh and meant k-razy, raise your hand. This is just plain wrong... listen to the track.

Here: http://odeo.com/audio/4626113/view

a little after 3:30


When Brown later asks for hits and says he wants the "same one" THREE TIMES, according to the lyrics online he says "Say it once (3xs)". He's asking for the same hit they did before. Why would he say "say it once" three times? That's silly. Heck, some even contain the same typo: "Get ready I need it, I ened a hit again".


Paraphrasing Barbara Billingsley from Airplane: "Can I help? I speak James Brown"


"Chump change"?

My favorite screwed up lyric other than the K-razy stuff is "Hit 'em again". ANYONE who knows James Brown would know it's "Hit ME!". Trust the sheets on that too?


Those lyrics on line have obviously been copied from one place to another and while they're admirably close for people who don't really listen to Brown, they blew some key Brown phrases.

If you don't know you better ask somebody.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by bburk

You just have to listen to how he pronounces 'karate'. He doesn't do the long 'e' sound on the last syllable. He does the 'ah' sound, just like he does for 'crazy'

'I don't know KA-rat-AH, but I know KA-raz-AH!'

I have very little doubt about this one.

Don't you hear the long "e" on karate? Cabcreaser does.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by RHFusillo

If you listen to it carefully, he's saying "'Cause I speak of the Pompetus of Love."

This one is alot easier than that one.

[cabcreaser]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Don't you hear the long "e" on karate? Cabcreaser does.

No, he clearly says "kuh-ray-zah" on the track (and his vocal on the later "Rapp Payback" - sounds nearly identical although, to my ears, sounds even less like krazor). I was criticizing your method of evaluating the rhyme (i.e., discussing optional pronunciations of karate,etc.), particularly as a means to justify what you hear. We have all heard the track (in my case, hundreds of times) and we will all continue to hear it the way we hear it (which is cool).

The question is regarding intent of meaning.

The fact of the matter is he says "kuh-ray-zah" and to some it sounds like krazor and to others it sounds like crazy. Neither side can definitively state which one it is. Fortunately, the song is funky.

[lbanks]

Its Ka-Razor. Ka-ray-zee would not have meant anything that someone would have said about themselves, in the venacular of that day; it was an insult and one that would get you cut!. But back then, even I carried a razor.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by cabcreaser

No, he clearly says "kuh-ray-zah" on the track (and his vocal on the later "Rapp Payback" - sounds nearly identical although, to my ears, sounds even less like krazor). I was criticizing your method of evaluating the rhyme (i.e., discussing optional pronunciations of karate,etc.), particularly as a means to justify what you hear. We have all heard the track (in my case, hundreds of times) and we will all continue to hear it the way we hear it (which is cool).

I wasn't discussing optional pronunciations of karate. I was explaing how people AT THAT TIME pronounced it. If you know who John Saxon and Jim Kelly are and saw them in movies AT THAT TIME, you know that. Somehow I doubt you do or did.

The weird thing is that you say you hear the same thing I'm hearing and you somehow think there's a snowball's chance that he's saying crazy. That just shows a complete ignorance of how some people talked back then. I OTOH grew up in that culture, played that song when it was new and saw Brown several times. That is very pertinent because this is basically like (if I were you) me arguing the meaning of Cockney rhymes with a Brit

The question is regarding intent of meaning.

The fact of the matter is he says "kuh-ray-zah" and to some it sounds like krazor and to others it sounds like crazy. Neither side can definitively state which one it is. Fortunately, the song is funky.

How the heck does "zah" sound like "ee"?. Give me another word that might be pronounced like this odd pronunciation of crazy.

OTOH that type of pronunciation of that last syllable is very common in southern US language. Gator, refrigerator, later,
ad nauseum all get pronounced without the hard "r" on the end.

Heck, watch an episode of "In the Heat of the Night" and listen to Carroll O'Connor

His intent was the same as many people AT THAT TIME. Come at me with that karate stuff and I'll cut you. AGAIN, this is what was done AT THAT TIME. Shooting was pretty rare.

Like Brown would say, If you don't know you better ask somebody. Except you're getting it explained to you and you don't like the explanation. No, you didn't have to be in the studio with Brown during the recording to know how people talked in the early 70's.

Some of those translations are flat out laughable. Do you hear him saying "chump change" as your links say or "chicken change"? Do you think he yelled "Hit em"?

Hey, don't believe me. This is just a glaring situation of someone not understanding the vernacular.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by lbanks

Its Ka-Razor. Ka-ray-zee would not have meant anything that someone would have said about themselves, in the venacular of that day; it was an insult and one that would get you cut!. But back then, even I carried a razor.

There it is.


Telling someone you were crazy back then would've done absolutely no good. It would've gotten your crazy a$$ cut

Crazy is what you might call someone else. It was an insult.

Seems some of these people might be confusing James Brown with Dr. Detroit

Hit 'em! (3xs)

[daveyfunk]

i know he says k-razy, but i think he also says t-reza (as in the name) at some point. just a little thing i might of heard, i love all jb tunes and listen to them ALOT.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by daveyfunk

i know he says k-razy, but i think he also says t-reza (as in the name) at some point. just a little thing i might of heard, i love all jb tunes and listen to them ALOT.

If that's what you hear you really need to listen to the song again. I provided a link.

Where do you think he's saying t-reza?

[AxtoOx]

I was going to bail on this thread till I saw post #9. I knew it would be entertaining after that.

[cabcreaser]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

I wasn't discussing optional pronunciations of karate. I was explaing how people AT THAT TIME pronounced it. If you know who John Saxon and Jim Kelly are and saw them in movies AT THAT TIME, you know that. Somehow I doubt you do or did.

The weird thing is that you say you hear the same thing I'm hearing and you somehow think there's a snowball's chance that he's saying crazy. That just shows a complete ignorance of how some people talked back then. I OTOH grew up in that culture, played that song when it was new and saw Brown several times. That is very pertinent because this is basically like (if I were you) me arguing the meaning of Cockney rhymes with a Brit



How the heck does "zah" sound like "ee"?. Give me another word that might be pronounced like this odd pronunciation of crazy.

OTOH that type of pronunciation of that last syllable is very common in southern US language. Gator, refrigerator, later,
ad nauseum all get pronounced without the hard "r" on the end.

Heck, watch an episode of "In the Heat of the Night" and listen to Carroll O'Connor

His intent was the same as many people AT THAT TIME. Come at me with that karate stuff and I'll cut you. AGAIN, this is what was done AT THAT TIME. Shooting was pretty rare.

Like Brown would say, If you don't know you better ask somebody. Except you're getting it explained to you and you don't like the explanation. No, you didn't have to be in the studio with Brown during the recording to know how people talked in the early 70's.

Some of those translations are flat out laughable. Do you hear him saying "chump change" as your links say or "chicken change"? Do you think he yelled "Hit em"?

Hey, don't believe me. This is just a glaring situation of someone not understanding the vernacular.

notice Brad, I purposefully did not post links. WE COMPLETELY AGREE that lyric sites don't settle this at all.

Also, I really appreciate the thoroughness with which you have studied this and the lengths you have gone to get your point across. However, I still think when James Brown said "Kuh-ray-zuh" that he was mispronouncing crazy as opposed to accurately pronouncing "k-razor", whatever that word is.

My argument is quite simple, k-razor is not a word and crazy is.
James says "kuh-ray-zuh" and I think he is mispronouncing an existing word instead of accurately pronouncing a made up one.

Either way, I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion, and I hope that all involved have as well.