Miking cabs in the studio

RexNFX79 · #1 10-23-2009, 02:20 PM

I have recorded through a D.I. box, out of my head and into the mix, and by miking the cabs. It seems to me that miking the cabs really captures my tone as I like to hear it the best. I'm playing on a project now where the engineer really feels that miking bass cabs is pointless. Maybe it's psychological on my part but I don't think I agree with this. Any thoughts?

Socalef9 · #2 10-23-2009, 02:54 PM

Definitely better sound when miking, it just has to be done right.

RexNFX79 · #3 10-23-2009, 03:00 PM

It seems to me that this would be because you get the true voice of the bassist that you're recording by allowing them to use their rig and is sounds more real. Is this right?

Lowbrow · #4 10-23-2009, 03:01 PM

In thirty years of recording, I've almost always recorded both mic and DI signals, yet have almost always either totally discarded the mic signal in favor of the DI, or just mixed in a tiny bit of the mic signal.

Recently I've recorded direct-only through the VT Bass pedal, and the result is truly one of the best recorded bass sounds I've ever achieved - sounds like a live amp.

deaf pea · #5 10-23-2009, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RexNFX79

...the engineer really feels that miking bass cabs is pointless...

Sounds to ME like a lazy and/or inexperienced engineer . . . IME . . .

grifff · #6 10-23-2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaf pea

Sounds to ME like a lazy and/or inexperienced engineer . . . IME . . .

I don't agree. Only you will most likely be able to hear any difference at all once all the other instruments are mixed. Every studio I have recorded in used the sound from the DI signal. Guitars are a different matter.

JimmyM · #7 10-23-2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowbrow

In thirty years of recording, I've almost always recorded both mic and DI signals, yet have almost always either totally discarded the mic signal in favor of the DI, or just mixed in a tiny bit of the mic signal.

Recently I've recorded direct-only through the VT Bass pedal, and the result is truly one of the best recorded bass sounds I've ever achieved - sounds like a live amp.

Even though I do like to use the VT direct on my home recordings because I'm lazy, I usually end up preferring a blend that's heavier on the mic than the DI.

scottbass · #8 10-23-2009, 03:12 PM

I also used to record direct and mic'ed cab, and I also used to almost always throw away the mic'ed cab track and just "touch up" the direct track to get the sound I wanted.

The quality of today's amp-simulation plugins and cabinet-simulation plugins is so excellent, IMHO, that you can get what you want without having to mic a cabinet. And, more importantly, the original track is just your bass which can then be tried through any number of different (virtual) amp and cab combinations during mixdown to tailor the sound the way you want it.

deaf pea · #9 10-23-2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaf pea

Sounds to ME like a lazy and/or inexperienced engineer . . . IME . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by grifff

I don't agree...

What, exactly, are you refering to "I don't agree"?

That it "Sounds to ME", "In My Experience"?
huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by grifff

...Only you will most likely be able to hear any difference at all once all the other instruments are mixed...

I guess you didn't check my profile . . . As a multiple Grammy Award-winning recording engineer with almost 40 years experience, I CAN most definitely hear . . . and FEEL . . . the difference between a well-miked cab and WHATEVER cheap-a** . . . OR expensive . . . plug-in (or pedal) you might "recommend". . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by grifff

...Every studio I have recorded in used the sound from the DI signal...

Well, I guess you don't have a lot of experience then . . . or, more likely, haven't worked with highly experienced, PROFESSIONAL engineers . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by grifff

...Guitars are a different matter.

IMO, guitars don't deserve more, or less care than any other instrument when recording . . .

.

JimmyM · #10 10-23-2009, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaf pea

I guess you didn't check my profile . . . As a multiple Grammy Award-winning recording engineer with almost 40 years experience, I CAN most definitely hear . . . and FEEL . . . the difference between a well-miked cab and WHATEVER cheap-a** . . . OR expensive . . . plug-in (or pedal) you might "recommend". . .
.

As a multiple Grammy Award-losing recording engineer (OTOH, can't lose what you were never nominated for), I totally agree with this. However, amp sim plugins and pedals are getting a lot better than they used to be, and I'm feeling less and less skittish about using them.

deaf pea · #11 10-23-2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

As a multiple Grammy Award-losing recording engineer (OTOH, can't lose what you were never nominated for), I totally agree with this. However, amp sim plugins and pedals are getting a lot better than they used to be, and I'm feeling less and less skittish about using them.

I agree that the current products are MUCH better than what we had to work with in the 80's and 90's . . . but I still maintain that REAL musicians, using real ACOUSTIC instruments, just sounds so much better as part of the final mix of a CD than samples played by a keyboard player and/or "simulations" of amps . . . YMMV . . .

Don't worry about the Grammys . . . I rarely talk about them EXCEPT when responding to what I consider to be "un-informed" opinions of an 18-year-old kid . . .

.

jmac · #12 10-23-2009, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaf pea

I agree that the current products are MUCH better than what we had to work with in the 80's and 90's . . . but I still maintain that REAL musicians, using real ACOUSTIC instruments, just sounds so much better as part of the final mix of a CD than samples played by a keyboard player and/or "simulations" of amps . . . YMMV . . .

Don't worry about the Grammys . . . I rarely talk about them EXCEPT when responding to what I consider to be "un-informed" opinions of an 18-year-old kid . . .

.

You know the rules...no pictures, no grammys. Oh wait, that's girls and basses. lol.

Congrats.

What type of mic and position do you like to use for bass. I normally like to use a 421, but currently don't have one available.

deliciouspesto · #13 10-23-2009, 11:32 PM

Are you limited by tracks or something? Is your engineer setting you up to have to re-amp your recording? DI and Cab sounds are very different and both useful as part of the mixing process... you should do both. Amp sims don't work as well as some claim, don't bother doing it in post. Do it right the first time.

MattAT · #14 10-23-2009, 11:39 PM

Do both! Definitely do both. Pointless?? Was that a joke?

OhulahanBass · #15 10-23-2009, 11:59 PM

What would you all use for mics?

deaf pea · #16 10-24-2009, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmac

You know the rules...no pictures, no grammys. Oh wait, that's girls and basses. lol.

Congrats.

What type of mic and position do you like to use for bass. I normally like to use a 421, but currently don't have one available.

If you're asking about micing a bass AMP, I like to use an EV RE-20 . . . it doesn't add any extra low end (NO proximity effect)

Here's a pic from the 2008 Latin Grammys in Houston . . .

JimmyM · #17 10-24-2009, 12:17 AM

I should get more into the Latin scene around here. It's pretty poppin' in Fla, and they don't seem to discriminate over age. And I've seen more than one gringo doing it. Besides, I look close enough to pass

nothumb · #18 10-24-2009, 12:45 AM

instead of posting about how many grammys you've won why not post some recordings you actually did and point out how you think putting a mic on the cab sounds better. a lot depends on the genre of music and the desired tone. "REAL MUSICIANS... ACOUSTIC INSTRUMENTS..." blah blah it's the same sort of sky-is-falling, faux old-school purism that everyone was throwing around when all the analog guys crapped themselves in fear of pro tools. technology changes.

james jamerson recorded direct into the board on hundreds of classic tracks. lots of other great records have been made the same way. insisting on a particular method of recording is putting the cart before the horse.

deaf pea · #19 10-24-2009, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I should get more into the Latin scene around here. It's pretty poppin' in Fla, and they don't seem to discriminate over age...

Yeah, that's true . . .

The production team that I usually work with is Joan Sebastian, composer, arranger and producer (58 years old); Jesus Rincon, Co-Producer (72 years old) and me, Dennis Parker as recording, mixing and mastering engineer (64 years old) . . . in the latin american culture in general, there seems to be respect for the experience that old age brings . . . and also, in particular, within the music business . . .

That picture was me arriving at the red carpet . . . I was nominated for my work as engineer and mastering engineer for Vicente Fernandez' CD "Para Siempre" in the category "Record of the Year" . . . we didn't win that one (Juanes won), but we DID win "Best Ranchero Album" . . .

We just last week delivered a new CD by Vicente's son, Alejandro Fernandez, to his new record company (he was with Sony-BMG for several years, now he's with Universal) . . . I guess Alex wants to try to catch up with his Dad's sales figures . . .

.

JimmyM · #20 10-24-2009, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nothumb

instead of posting about how many grammys you've won why not post some recordings you actually did and point out how you think putting a mic on the cab sounds better. a lot depends on the genre of music and the desired tone. "REAL MUSICIANS... ACOUSTIC INSTRUMENTS..." blah blah it's the same sort of sky-is-falling, faux old-school purism that everyone was throwing around when all the analog guys crapped themselves in fear of pro tools. technology changes.

james jamerson recorded direct into the board on hundreds of classic tracks. lots of other great records have been made the same way. insisting on a particular method of recording is putting the cart before the horse.

No it isn't. Calm down. If you tell me you'd rather have a sampled orchestra than a real orchestra on a recording, I'd tell you why you don't have any Grammys. And if I bought a great sounding amp to the studio and the engineer told me he thinks it would sound better to DI and didn't even try it, I would think he was stupid. There's a reason that people still mic amps after all these years. Instead of challenging the dude, maybe you ought to type less and read more. Worst that can happen is you learn something.