Miking cabs in the studio

[grifff]

Originally Posted by deaf pea

What, exactly, are you refering to "I don't agree"?

I don't agree that only a lazy or inexperienced engineer wouldn't mic the cabinets. I play in a band for fun, nothing more. When we pay to record an EP for the experience and enjoyment of it, the sound quality is not nearly as important as the affordability.

Originally Posted by deaf pea

I guess you didn't check my profile . . . As a multiple Grammy Award-winning recording engineer with almost 40 years experience, I CAN most definitely hear . . . and FEEL . . . the difference between a well-miked cab and WHATEVER cheap-a** . . . OR expensive . . . plug-in (or pedal) you might "recommend". . .

Yes I'm sure you can most definitely hear it. You're a multiple Grammy Award winning recording engineer with almost 40 years experience. I was referring to the average listener that will be buying and listening to albums by any artist. As stated in my original post: "...Only you will most likely be able to hear any difference at all once all the other instruments are mixed..."

It's honestly not worth my time dragging this out in this thread in order to clarify myself further. Reading through your other responses I didn't appreciate the age comment whether or not it was directed at me or another member.

If you'd like to continue to discuss this, please send me a PM.

EDIT: Your tone and the way you addressed me had me feel as though you were speaking down to me. I don't think anyone appreciates that.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by sloasdaylight

My point, which you're either intentionally missing or purposely missing, is that the majority of the people who will be buying your (of course using the impersonal you here) albums (the 15 year olds) will not be able to tell the difference between a bass line recorded DI and through a bass rig, as opposed to a bass line recorded DI, and processed through a good modeling software.

Of course though we're not all people with 40 years of recording experience, so please, pull rank some more.

I see that as no reason not to do things the hard way. It's not their job as listeners to know what sounds good. It's yours, and you should have a little pride in it. I'm sure Line 6 can do a pretty good guitarron impersonation, but on a master recording of traditional sounding Mexican folk songs, you're going to use a real guitarron unless you're lazy.

[sloasdaylight]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I see that as no reason not to do things the hard way. It's not their job as listeners to know what sounds good. It's yours, and you should have a little pride in it. I'm sure Line 6 can do a pretty good guitarron impersonation, but on a master recording of traditional sounding Mexican folk songs, you're going to use a real guitarron unless you're lazy.

I don't know where you're getting this impression, either you or deaf pea, that I don't take pride in what I do. I am in an original band that is producing our first full length album, and quite frankly money is an issue. It's much easier and less time consuming to not bring my full Hartke Rig (3500 and vx810) into the studio every time I'm laying down a bass track for an hour, or three or four, then haul it back out to band practice or wherever I'm taking it, and instead bring my two SansAmps and run direct into the board, especially because the fact of the matter is that the people who have so far listened to our demo have not been able to tell the difference in the bass tones as to whether I've been blending my sound between the initial amp/DI recordings we've done, or the DI only recordings we've done. Do I know? Yes, do i have a preference? Yea, I'd rather mic the cab and blend the signal, but you know what? To me it's not that big of a difference to warrant hauling around 200+lb worth of gear to get what in my opinion is about a 5% better sound, which only sounds better if you've got a good mixer/masterer, because ****** mic placement against the cab can make a great sounding cab sound like dog dookie.

As griff stated, YOU the artist will know what you've done and what you sound like when you go DI into the board as opposed to a mic/DI blend, but the people who are going to buy your album do not about 95% of the time, if not more.

If you can lay down a good groove, and if you can get a good tone out of your bass, which is possible either running DI or by Micing your cab, then people will say "Hey man, that bass player sounds pretty good, I can groove to this"; or something to that effect. They're not going to say "Hey man, this bass player can play, but I don't like the tone he gets because he didn't mic his cab and just went DI into the board, what a lazy ass."

Huh? . . . Which is it? "intentionally missing"? . . . or "purposely missing"? . . .

Dunno, you tell me.

The sub-group you mention ("the 15 year olds") admittedly don't have the critical listening skills, especially if they're listening to low-bit-rate mp3's . . .

Yea man, everybody just releases stuff on Myspace, no one makes quality mixed and mastered recordings or releases anything on CDs anymore except for you.

I'm NOT "pulling rank" . . . you don't seem to appreciate the fact that I (and other industry professionals with credentials/experience) am willing to share that experience with other, less-experienced TBers . . .

Please, spare me. If "I guess you didn't check my profile . . . As a multiple Grammy Award-winning recording engineer with almost 40 years experience, I CAN most definitely hear . . . and FEEL . . . the difference between a well-miked cab and WHATEVER cheap-a** . . . OR expensive . . . plug-in (or pedal) you might "recommend". . ." isn't trying to pull rank then I don't know what is.

Besides, the fact that apparently people can't disagree with your opinion based on their own experience simply because you've won xyz number of grammys and have so much time in the studio is actually a little bit insulting, because unless you've recorded every band out there, you really don't know what works better for a particular band's sound than another's.

[JimmyM]

I wouldn't lug an SVT to a studio every single day either, though I have in the past. But that extra 5% would be enough to where I'd lug a nice combo amp, or even plug into a guitar amp and play quietly. Big sounds can come out of little amps in the studio. OTOH, it's not like I'm a purist. I love my VT, for example, and I think it makes excellent tracks that would hold up in a serious studio setting. But there's a reason why on serious master sessions that guitarists still mic amps, and drummers still set up full drumkits and mic instead of using electronic drums, and acoustic guitars are mic'ed instead of DI'd through a pickup, and grand pianos are mic'ed instead of using samples, etc. If you're on a budget, do what you have to do to make it sound good and not cost a fortune, but when you've got the money, I don't know a producer or engineer who prefers to use samples and modeling instead of the real thing.

EDIT: OK, I do know of a few who prefer samples and modeling. But even they will admit that there's something very natural and beautiful sounding with recordings done the hard way with the real thing.

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by grifff

...EDIT: Your tone and the way you addressed me had me feel as though you were speaking down to me. I don't think anyone appreciates that.

I'm truly sorry about that . . . it wasn't my intention . . .

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by sloasdaylight

... unless you've recorded every band out there, you really don't know what works better for a particular band's sound than another's.

But I DO try any . . . and all . . . possible ways to achieve the bands' goals . . . on all of the projects that I work on . . .

[sloasdaylight]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I wouldn't lug an SVT to a studio every single day either, though I have in the past. But that extra 5% would be enough to where I'd lug a nice combo amp, or even plug into a guitar amp and play quietly. Big sounds can come out of little amps in the studio. OTOH, it's not like I'm a purist. I love my VT, for example, and I think it makes excellent tracks that would hold up in a serious studio setting. But there's a reason why on serious master sessions that guitarists still mic amps, and drummers still set up full drumkits and mic instead of using electronic drums, and acoustic guitars are mic'ed instead of DI'd through a pickup, and grand pianos are mic'ed instead of using samples, etc. If you're on a budget, do what you have to do to make it sound good and not cost a fortune, but when you've got the money, I don't know a producer or engineer who prefers to use samples and modeling instead of the real thing.

EDIT: OK, I do know of a few who prefer samples and modeling. But even they will admit that there's something very natural and beautiful sounding with recordings done the hard way with the real thing.

As I said, I mic whenever possible, and I take pride in my work, but my combo amp is a little 15 watt hartke pos that I use in my room so I don't disturb people, and I have no mid sized cab to take in and fiddle with. My guitarists are all in the same boat as well, they all have stacks and little piddly sh*t guitar amps for practice situations or for traveling when they wanna play if they wanna use their electrics, so lugging a small combo amp to mic is again not an option, so I'm left with the option to haul my 8x10 and head rack to the studio every day, or run DI through my two sans amps into the board and do the EQing/coloring there, I'll go with the SansAmps.