Non-Musician comments on songs.

[Tommygunn]

My mom likes to comment on the stuff I listen to all the time. Its funny cause she couldn't tell you Rolling Stones from GreenDay (though she can distinguish one instrument from another). But her comments are often interesting. Today I was listening to Freewill by Rush and she was like "Man! Do they have a lead bass or something!?"

[zachoff]

Musicians tend to comment on individual technicalities... Non musicians tend to comment on the whole. I think both are important.

[Tommygunn]

My guess is she recognizes cause I play bass, but I thought it was pretty funny.

[ciledehcysp]

Know what you mean, it's funny..

you can listen to music in so many ways, some people probably can't concentrate and be open to new stuff.

You say: Listen to that... isn't it awsome?
Other person doesn't even know what you're talking about

To really listen to music is a gift and I am happy to be able

[dj150888]

As musicians, sometimes we get a bit arrogant, and think our opinions on music are more valid than those who don't play.

This isn't true at all. Listening to music and appreciating music isn't exclusive to musicians, nor is our opinion on it more valid than anyone else out there listening to it.

[Wasted Bassist]

The last time I put Rush on with my mom in the room, she commented half way through the first song that she wished that they wouldn't be so self indulgent in their playing. Haha. Needless to say she has very different tastes than I do.

[Pj,Rj,Hj]

Originally Posted by zachoff

Musicians tend to comment on individual technicalities... Non musicians tend to comment on the whole. I think both are important.

This, the opinions of non musicians can be especialyl helpful to many a novice who may get bogged down in the technicalities and ego boosting flair rather than looking at, and hearing the composition as a whole.

[rosanne]

Some vary astute comments in this short thread.

[frisbieinstein]

I've given up on recommendations from non-musicians. Most of the stuff just sucks. If it is from a musician then there will be something good about it, even if I don't like it.

Playing music makes a certain part of your brain grow. A doctor can tell a musician during the autopsy. We really do hear things differently.

[klyph]

Originally Posted by frisbieinstein

A doctor can tell a musician during the autopsy.

I'd rather he ask me while I'm still breathing.

[baalroo]

Originally Posted by dj150888

As musicians, sometimes we get a bit arrogant, and think our opinions on music are more valid than those who don't play.

This isn't true at all. Listening to music and appreciating music isn't exclusive to musicians, nor is our opinion on it more valid than anyone else out there listening to it.

I would agree that "listening to music and appreciating music isn't exclusive to musicians," but I'm not sure I completely agree with "nor is our opinion on it more valid than anyone else out there listening to it"

I can appreciate the stars just as much as an astrophysicist. OTOH, the astrophysicists opinion on matters of astralphysics should rightly hold more weight than mine, because the physicist spends a lot more time studying and learning about physics than I do.

I think the better statement would be "nor is our ENJOYMENT of it more valid than anyone else out there listening to it."

Anyone can feel free to listen to haphazardly constructed, mindless , drivel.... but it's still haphazardly constructed, mindless, and drivel.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by baalroo

Anyone can feel free to listen to haphazardly constructed, mindless , drivel.... but it's still haphazardly constructed, mindless, and drivel.

What if a musician with more experience and a higher/deeper level of musical education than you told you that a piece which you perceived to be "haphazardly constructed, mindless , drivel" was in fact none of that?

And then what if a non-musician agreed?

What if the non-musician made that assertion first?

[baalroo]

Originally Posted by Hoover

What if a musician with more experience and a higher/deeper level of musical education than you told you that a piece which you perceived to be "haphazardly constructed, mindless , drivel" was in fact none of that?

And then what if a non-musician agreed?

What if the non-musician made that assertion first?

If they explained to me how they've come to that conclusion then I would come away from the experience learning something new from someone with a greater understanding than I of the subject at hand.

I'm not sure how the non-musician's opinion would be any more relevant than before in your scenario. Serendipity happens.

[jrthebassguy]

Non-musicians vastly musicians...so from a sales perspective, as long as the comments non-musicians make towards my music is positive, I think I'm doing good.

[dj150888]

Originally Posted by baalroo

I would agree that "listening to music and appreciating music isn't exclusive to musicians," but I'm not sure I completely agree with "nor is our opinion on it more valid than anyone else out there listening to it"

I can appreciate the stars just as much as an astrophysicist. OTOH, the astrophysicists opinion on matters of astralphysics should rightly hold more weight than mine, because the physicist spends a lot more time studying and learning about physics than I do.

I think the better statement would be "nor is our ENJOYMENT of it more valid than anyone else out there listening to it."

Anyone can feel free to listen to haphazardly constructed, mindless , drivel.... but it's still haphazardly constructed, mindless, and drivel.

Nope, because astrophysics lies in the realms of fact, music, and indeed art in general does not.

Your type of post is the arrogance I'm talking about. To a lot of people, the intense concern about whats right as "a musician", removes the focus away from just writing a good song.

No matter how you phrase it, in no way, or in no world, are you entitled to more of an opinion that anyone else, nor is your opinion even SLIGHTLY more valid than anyone elses. You can choose how much merit you take from another person's opinion, this doesn't in ANY way lessen the validity of their opinion.

Please don't try mixing up fact and opinion to support an argument, it makes you look foolish and under-educated, which I'm sure you're not.

[baalroo]

Originally Posted by dj150888

Nope, because astrophysics lies in the realms of fact, music, and indeed art in general does not.

Your type of post is the arrogance I'm talking about. To a lot of people, the intense concern about whats right as "a musician", removes the focus away from just writing a good song.

No matter how you phrase it, in no way, or in no world, are you entitled to more of an opinion that anyone else, nor is your opinion even SLIGHTLY more valid than anyone elses. You can choose how much merit you take from another person's opinion, this doesn't in ANY way lessen the validity of their opinion.

Please don't try mixing up fact and opinion to support an argument, it makes you look foolish and under-educated, which I'm sure you're not.

But see, here's where your argument falls apart; If it's all subjective then I get to choose how much weight I place in any particular person's opinion, and I've found that non-musician's opinions on music generally do not align well with my own. The things I find interesting and enjoyable about listening to music require a higher level of understanding than that of the casual observer.

Why can't I apply my own subjective measuring stick to other's subjective opinions? Of course some opinions are subjectively "more valid" than others to me.

Frankly I find your argument insulting.

What you have done is define "good music" as "good songs" but there are many other measuring sticks that YOU are invalidating with that statement, many of which a non-musician could not judge... unless you would like to contradict yourself and impose "good songs" as an objective measurement.

[dj150888]

Originally Posted by baalroo

But see, here's where your argument falls apart; If it's all subjective then I get to choose how much weight I place in any particular person's opinion, and I've found that non-musician's opinions on music generally do not align well with my own. The things I find interesting and enjoyable about listening to music require a higher level of understanding than that of the casual observer.

Why can't I apply my own subjective measuring stick to other's subjective opinions? Of course some opinions are subjectively "more valid" than others to me.

Frankly I find your argument insulting.

What you have done is define "good music" as "good songs" but there are many other measuring sticks that YOU are invalidating with that statement, many of which a non-musician could not judge... unless you would like to contradict yourself and impose "good songs" as an objective measurement.

You're missing my point entirely. The validity of another persons opinion is in no way related to yours. They are just as entitled to their own opinion. My entire point is I'm NOT defining what good music is, you're the one doing that. In fact, if you go back and read my last post, I specifically said you choose how much merit you place PERSONALLY in that persons opinion, but your opinion is no more or less valuable than the person you disagree with.

I'll tell you what makes a good song! There are no, "measuring sticks", its quite simple. If it sounds good to that person, and they are entertained by it, its a good song, for them.

You may require certain technical factors to validate a song as, "good" to you, but this doesn't make your opinion any better than the person who just judges it based on a more simplistic, "that sounds good", "This does not" basis.

Feel free to be insulted. In my opinion, my post wasn't remotely insulting, in your opinion it was. Who has the, "more valid" opinion there?

[baalroo]

Originally Posted by dj150888

You're missing my point entirely. The validity of another persons opinion is in no way related to yours. They are just as entitled to their own opinion. My entire point is I'm NOT defining what good music is, you're the one doing that. In fact, if you go back and read my last post, I specifically said you choose how much merit you place PERSONALLY in that persons opinion, but your opinion is no more or less valuable than the person you disagree with.

I'll tell you what makes a good song! There are no, "measuring sticks", its quite simple. If it sounds good to that person, and they are entertained by it, its a good song, for them.

You may require certain technical factors to validate a song as, "good" to you, but this doesn't make your opinion any better than the person who just judges it based on a more simplistic, "that sounds good", "This does not" basis.

Feel free to be insulted. In my opinion, my post wasn't remotely insulting, in your opinion it was. Who has the, "more valid" opinion there?

Ok look, since "valid" is simply a synonym for "legitimate" then I agree with your basic point, but I don't think the conversation simply stops at "you like what you like, I like what I like."

There's no real world application at that point, if we all accepted that then there would be no reason to discuss music at all. We would all just aimlessly search through samplings of music until we found things that we like and there would be no need for critics or discussion boards or genres or mixtapes etc etc.

In real world application, we have to assign different levels of weight to different people's opinions, and for some the opinions of a non-musician just don't really matter much because they don't know enough about the process of creating music. You can imagine that makes a person who dismisses a non-musician's opinion as "less worthy" a snob, but in that act it actually makes YOU the snob.

See, a person who chooses what he likes about music and then searches out those who like the same things and ignores the opinions of those who do not is simply trying to find and discuss the things they enjoy finding and discussing. The person who calls that guy a "snob" is being judgmental and implying that their own measuring stick is the superior one (thus the negative connotation to the word "snob").

I understand that it might hurt someone's feelings if I dismiss their opinions because I find them irrelevant to my own interests, but frankly that's on them rather than on me. I'm sure they aren't interested in the song's time signature or it's harmonic structure and would likely dismiss my opinions as well.

It takes two to tango

[ttasselm]

Before this evolves (or, more likely, degenerates) into another debate over artistic relativism, I'd just like to say that I value any and all opinions I hear regarding music, whether the music be mine or someone else's.

[BassInUrFace]

Originally Posted by jrthebassguy

Non-musicians vastly musicians...so from a sales perspective, as long as the comments non-musicians make towards my music is positive, I think I'm doing good.

+1

there are very very popular artists out there (no need to name names) that musicians think are complete jokes because of the simplicity of their music, but they appeal to a lot of non-musicians because its very pleasing to the ear.

on the other hand there are a lot of artists out there that musicians appreciate because of their creativity and technique/skill. how ever this music often sounds bad to non-musicians because of its obscurity and the fact that their ears aren't trained to hear the music and its individual elements like ours.

the truth is that more money goes into the first type of music.

it pays to be boring.