? for the session players

rdmjazz · #1 03-24-2008, 06:49 PM

Here's my frustration...

I play live, mostly jazz gigs lately, and I am used to coming up with bass lines according to the style of the song, my own style and attitude of playing and by listening and reacting to what the other players are doing in the song.(Yes I actually listen)

In the studio it seems my typical session goes like this: Singer/songwriter comes in and plays the song for myself and the drummer. We chart the tune out and finalize the form(they never seem to play it the same twice), and a basic idea of the feel and so on. We then cut the bass and drum tracks with a scratch guitar and vocal track.

Now seeing I don't have any other players to react to or even know what other kinds of tracks will be on the project and there is no producer for direction, I usually try to lay down a good feeling solid bass track for where I think the song will be going and to stay out of the way for the other tracks to come.

Now fast forward to project end. I hear the song with all the new tracks and hear a section or part and think gee I wish I had heard that first cause I would have played something different to make the bass part just a bit better.

Obviously studio work and improvisational playing are going to be two different worlds, but how do you other session players deal with being the first tracks recorded and coming up with a bass part that is not too simple and basic (if there is such a thing) yet interesting and inspiring.

Should I just seek out a mental health professional and get treatment for being an over critcal musician?

TheIrishOx · #2 03-24-2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdmjazz

Here's my frustration...

I play live, mostly jazz gigs lately, and I am used to coming up with bass lines according to the style of the song, my own style and attitude of playing and by listening and reacting to what the other players are doing in the song.(Yes I actually listen)

In the studio it seems my typical session goes like this: Singer/songwriter comes in and plays the song for myself and the drummer. We chart the tune out and finalize the form(they never seem to play it the same twice), and a basic idea of the feel and so on. We then cut the bass and drum tracks with a scratch guitar and vocal track.

Now seeing I don't have any other players to react to or even know what other kinds of tracks will be on the project and there is no producer for direction, I usually try to lay down a good feeling solid bass track for where I think the song will be going and to stay out of the way for the other tracks to come.

Now fast forward to project end. I hear the song with all the new tracks and hear a section or part and think gee I wish I had heard that first cause I would have played something different to make the bass part just a bit better.

Obviously studio work and improvisational playing are going to be two different worlds, but how do you other session players deal with being the first tracks recorded and coming up with a bass part that is not too simple and basic (if there is such a thing) yet interesting and inspiring.

Should I just seek out a mental health professional and get treatment for being an over critcal musician?

No it happens alot

It used to happened to me all the time, but the way I fix it is that I basically sit and try to come up with bass line that is very chameleon like. Its hard to explain but you will see what I am saying sooner or later.

arthurzen · #3 03-24-2008, 07:05 PM

I require the music written out in standard notation because, well, I'm not a composer.

Being hired for a live gig and doing improvisation is one thing, but it sucks doing sessions where the artist keeps changing the song, or what they want me to play (or changing direction after you've layed your track(s) down like your example). Sure, they're paying for my time, but if you want me to play it "your way" then write it out.

I've stopped doing most studio work.

scotch · #4 03-24-2008, 07:12 PM

It can be a little disappointing when I hear the finished song with all the parts recorded. I often wish I could go back and play off of the other musical ideas. Ultimately, I think my role in these types of sessions is to provide a solid, and sometimes interesting foundation for others to build on. I try to be happy with that.

An even worse way to work has been becoming more & more common over the last 6-7 years. I am often asked by producers to just play "sections" of a song one at a time. I might never even hear the song beginning to end! The producer asks for a few different ideas over the chorus changes, then a couple of verse options. I leave & then the producers & engineers cut & paste sections together in protools to assemble a part. I hate that! I never have a clue where the song is going!

I prefer interacting with groups of musicians, but it's getting rarer to do full-band sessions. I look forward to the better sessions & try to be thankful for the work during the less inspiring ones...

bassandbeyond · #5 03-24-2008, 07:39 PM

I can empathize, brother. The simple fact is, most sessions are not done with a live, full band these days and somebody has to go first! I actually prefer the situation that you describe over being the last one to play. In my experience, when the bass line comes last, the other instruments have usually already taken up all of the space, leaving room for little more than a very simple, conservative bass part.

As a rule of thumb, I would recommend building your part around the melody. As long as you know how the melody of the tune goes and don't interfere with that, you should generally be okay. And don't be too shy about adding some "spice" to your line. Your contribution can inspire others to react with more creative energy on the tracks added later. By the same token, I've found that overly cautious and conservative basic tracks tend to elicit dull overdubs later on.

rdmjazz · #6 03-24-2008, 08:20 PM

IrishOx
I dig what you are saying. More or less that's what I end up doing.

Arthurzen:
I just meant initially they don't always play it the same.Pretty common for solo musicians.

As for after my tracks, the song will naturally evolve and change with every new track and player.

Scotch
Man I did a track on a Freddie Jackson album like that. Cut and paste city and compressed the hell outta the track. I heard that track and really was dissapointed. If I could have heard the song a few times, I could have nailed a way better part.

Bassandbeyond
I agree I would rather go first. I guess I just need try opening up a bit more. My tracks always come out good and the clients are always happy,they just seem kinda too safe for me sometimes.

It's tough when someone comes out and sees you play in a high level situation, then hire you for a project that gets in to the apples and oranges situation.

nysbob · #7 03-24-2008, 08:33 PM

I try to come up with something that has some character while being supportive at the same time (I figure if they wanted generic, they wouldn't have hired me) and that's a fine line to walk. Sometimes little signature phrases that repeat through the tune are cool, or even just leaving a little hole for air somewhere in the groove can make the difference between something sounding pedestrian and exciting.

If there's no room for even doing that, you can put some character in playing say a straight 8th part by how you fall into and off of notes or changes. It's subtle stuff, but will keep it from sounding like a guy did it on a computer.

bassandbeyond · #8 03-25-2008, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nysbob

I try to come up with something that has some character while being supportive at the same time (I figure if they wanted generic, they wouldn't have hired me) and that's a fine line to walk.

+1 Nobody wants to be accused of overplaying, but you've got to put some personality into your part, otherwise they might as well just sequence a key bass part or have the guitar player play bass!

DWBass · #9 03-25-2008, 10:56 AM

If it's just bass and drums to start off with, my track is just a scratch track. I'm almost assuredly going to redo the entire track based on the rest of the ensemble. Can you not go in and re-track your parts? Honestly, that's not a good way to record, IMO. Everyone 'should' be on the same page. But then again, if the songwriter is happy the way it is..................

I can see vocals being done separately but not band parts. By that, I mean 'the band' should be able to hear the sum of all the parts and make adjustments as necessary.

scottbass · #10 03-25-2008, 11:03 AM

I was once asked to lay down a "plain" line and then another "fancy" line so the producer could cut and paste the more elaborate part where he wanted the bass line to stand out. That made perfect sense to me.

Since then, I always suggest this to the producer. 99% of the time they say "Yeah, whatever" as if they're not on board with the idea but they are humoring me. Funny thing, when I listen to the final mix they have always done just that - cut and pasted parts of the two very different bass lines to make the song more interesting.

By the way, I'm very proud of the first "genius" producer who asked me to lay down two different bass lines. He is my 19-year-old son.

rdmjazz · #11 03-25-2008, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWBass

If it's just bass and drums to start off with, my track is just a scratch track. I'm almost assuredly going to redo the entire track based on the rest of the ensemble. Can you not go in and re-track your parts? Honestly, that's not a good way to record, IMO. Everyone 'should' be on the same page. But then again, if the songwriter is happy the way it is..................

I can see vocals being done separately but not band parts. By that, I mean 'the band' should be able to hear the sum of all the parts and make adjustments as necessary.

Unfortunately there is a little thing called a budget, so redoing the tracks later is usually out of the question.

rdmjazz · #12 03-25-2008, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottbass

I was once asked to lay down a "plain" line and then another "fancy" line so the producer could cut and paste the more elaborate part where he wanted the bass line to stand out. That made perfect sense to me.

Since then, I always suggest this to the producer. 99% of the time they say "Yeah, whatever" as if they're not on board with the idea but they are humoring me. Funny thing, when I listen to the final mix they have always done just that - cut and pasted parts of the two very different bass lines to make the song more interesting.

By the way, I'm very proud of the first "genius" producer who asked me to lay down two different bass lines. He is my 19-year-old son.

Usually there is no producer for many of the seesions. The players and engineer end up molding it as the project moves along.

Maybe I'll try that sometime. "Playlist" can be a wonderful thing in this cut and paste world.

svenbass · #13 03-25-2008, 11:19 AM

While these types sessions are certainly not ideal, in time you get a feel for how to make tunes interesting and influence the direction of the music without getting in the way. However developing the insight to know when to really lay down a good 'ol meat and potatoes line is priceless.

If at all possible, I like to leave them with at least two tracks coming from opposite angles to choose from. As far as being disappointed in the end ... well yeah that just sucks.

If the client is happy, you've done your job, and hopefully gotten paid your fair share. I'm always thankful when work comes my way, and even more thankful when I get to really do my thing!

Somewhere around TB there is a great interview with Lee Sklar addressing the same issues - great words of wisdom from a 1st call studio cat!!

Rickett Customs · #14 03-25-2008, 11:24 AM

Sometimes you're not going to play exactly what you intended on in the first place, this is the norm, do not seek professional help

The artist can change up the ideas from time to time. The most important thing is, Is the artist/producer truly happy with your work? If the answer is yes, then you are thinking about it too much, If no, then you've recognized that you need to improve on your improvisation. Regardless, keep doin' what your doin'

/Jason

MixBass · #15 03-25-2008, 12:04 PM

Most writers have lived with an idea for a while and I try to find that thing where they say "that's it" as quick as I can. Like I'm giving them what they thought was there all along. I also try and choose if the path is to be simple and purely fundamental or to make the part more of a character in the tune. Either is great and I try to embrace it fully.
I once had a drummer on a tune of mine who was making his part much more than I wanted. After trying a few passes we took a frustration break and talked outside. He told me he knew exactly what I wanted. We went back in and he nailed it first pass. It was a valuable lesson for me. Find what they want as soon as possible and surrender to it.

BassLand · #16 03-25-2008, 06:46 PM

I can and have gone in and created a song with just a clicktrack. It really does sound a little scary until the rest of the tracks are in place at least when it starts fto fall into place groove wise. You are in a very good position to really dictate the direction of the song. If you have vision and are able to let others in the recording process know what you are doing it can be really good. Faith in oneself is a good thing.

BL