STOP BIT TORRENT SOFTWARE NOW!

[TRichardsbass]

Okay TBers, just was talking to a studio musician I know who just had to take a day job after 25 years of steady work. Thanks to a couple of things, the biggest being people "stealing" licks and portions of songs and sampling them, and the other biggie being illegal file sharing, he no longer can support himself by playing music full time. As a matter of fact, many of my famous buds have told me recently that they are doing less and less studio and more and more touring just to try to make ends meet.

Bit Torrent software, especially Frostwire, is just another name for STEALING! And they aren't stealing from someone with no face or soul, they are stealing from YOU! From Me! From many of our TB friends.

I am asking all of my TB compadres here to 1) delete any bit torrent software you have and promise to never, ever download music you didn't pay for again, 2) remove bit torrent software from your kids and relatives computers for the same resins and 3) join me in informing everyone on the streets that this type of software is illegal, has been found to be so in the US and foreign countries, and, it also is costing all of us the chance to make a good living playing our basses, doing what we love.

Frostwire currently is the biggest evil. I know a few teenagers who constantly "share" gigabytes of files a week and laugh at me when I scold them and tell them its stealing not sharing. (oh, and I'm not sure how its called sharing if you don't have the file and you haven't physically asked the 100 people you get the bits and bytes from if they are willing to share or if they got their copy legally.)

So please, spread the word, and join me in my crusade. I don't care if its unpopular, but its right.

[OldDog52]

I'm in that very tiny minority who agrees with you.

[Spencer!]

Technically it's copyright infringement, not stealing (not that this makes it anymore ok). And bit torrent software isn't illegal unless you use it for illegal purposes.

[WilliamSandoval]

I used Bit Torrent to download a game...

[pnut166]

Originally Posted by Spencer!

Technically it's copyright infringement, not stealing (not that this makes it anymore ok). And bit torrent software isn't illegal unless you use it for illegal purposes.

potato / potahto

[cataract]

I have never used a torrent program before, but good luck swaying the masses with your very informative thread.

[recreate.me]

Never even heard of frostwire until now...

[Diiw]

...

[Spencer!]

Originally Posted by pnut166

potato / potahto

I raised the point because the record label crusade of calling music fans thieves clearly isn't working. Bit torrent or not, there's no going back to the previous record label business model. People have fundamentally devalued recorded music. I download music, but I also spend a lot on music as well as pay 10 bucks a month for Spotify (I'd gladly pay more if they had a better selection). I'm not going to justify downloading music because I don't think it's justifiable, but I'm not going to label someone a criminal because they download music.

Here's some commentary on illegal downloading from one of the smartest people around (and a bass player): ‪Penn Point - Is it Ethical to Download Free Music? - Penn Point‬‏ - YouTube

[Joe Gress]

I know of at least one band that encourages the use of torrenting because all of their music is located on a torrent file. I know of many bands (specifically small or local bands) that encourage the use of it as well due to them wanting foremost for their music to be shared amongst fans or future fans. I have downloaded many updates to open source drivers and programs with torrent clients, and have seeded these torrents for quite some time to support the open source community out there. Nope, not deleting a program that encourages peer to peer file sharing just because most of its usage is for pirated music. There is still some good in it.

[erock138]

Debate that it's not theft, whatever have you. At the end of the day, you are taking food out of musicians mouths.....Which means less money, which means less artists hiring bass players, (My position and many others) or your band not getting what they deserve.

It's a hard business to be in, and this is only making it harder.

[TRichardsbass]

Spencer, Limewire, the previous biggest bit torrent software, was shut down after the US Supreme Court agreed that since it is used to primarily to "share" music and video, and the means of doing it was specifically to get around copyright law, it was, defacto, illegal. Even if I paid for the digital download, that is for my own non=commercial use. That means I can play it a billion times, I can play it on my stereo when I have friends over, but I cannot give a piece of it away, nor the whole.

Frostwire was an open source project that specifically came out of the Limewire litigation.

I may be in the minority, but I bet when all those kids start trying to make a living with their music they will realize they just created a society of musicians who ONLY do it for the love of music. And then they will realize that you will have to toil at some very tedious, meaningless, low pay job just to be able to afford to record and release your own stuff. Eventually they will find it too hard to do, and since music won't be paying the bills....

[MOTORHEADBANGER]

Originally Posted by pnut166

potato / potahto

Exactly. It's wrong either way. I'll admit, I have used a bit torrent software before, but it was for a few Rifftrax episodes (same guys from MST3K) since the dvd was out of stock and I donated money to their site afterward.

[superfunk47]

The old model isn't coming back. For better or worse, those in the industry need to either adapt or leave.

[Spencer!]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

Spencer, Limewire, the previous biggest bit torrent software, was shut down after the US Supreme Court agreed that since it is used to primarily to "share" music and video, and the means of doing it was specifically to get around copyright law, it was, defacto, illegal. Even if I paid for the digital download, that is for my own non=commercial use. That means I can play it a billion times, I can play it on my stereo when I have friends over, but I cannot give a piece of it away, nor the whole.

Frostwire was an open source project that specifically came out of the Limewire litigation.

I may be in the minority, but I bet when all those kids start trying to make a living with their music they will realize they just created a society of musicians who ONLY do it for the love of music. And then they will realize that you will have to toil at some very tedious, meaningless, low pay job just to be able to afford to record and release your own stuff. Eventually they will find it too hard to do, and since music won't be paying the bills....

Limewire was illegal because it allowed you to search for copyrighted content. Bit torrent clients just download files - they have no search function. The websites that search for content to point your torrent client to are often illegal, and frequently get shut down.

As someone who makes money playing music, I welcome people to buy/share/steal/etc. my music. The only thing I'm concerned with is getting people out to the live show. It's MUCH cheaper and easier than it's ever been to record a professional-sounding album.

[larry]

Originally Posted by superfunk47

The old model isn't coming back. For better or worse, those in the industry need to either adapt or leave.

So if everyone just decided that forming giant mobs and looting stores was a good idea, and it became commonplace, would you tell store owners that this is the new business model and they need to adapt?

[TRichardsbass]

Joe Gress, here is the problem I have. "Seeding the torrent" as you put it, is your intention to make something available to someone else that YOU created. And open source software and programs are meant to begin and end "free".

Taking a DVD I own and uploading it to my hard drive is not "seeding" a torrent. I don't know any kid who actually read the "license" that comes with Frostwire, however using the software is NOT a defacto agreement that anything on your hard drive is sharable. And bit torrent software does just that, searches YOUR hard drive and if it finds a copy of what it needs takes a piece or pieces of it and gives them to someone else.

So I disagree with you. Bit Torrent software was developed SPECIFICALLY to get around copyright and trademark laws. Its very existence came from the desire to make something free that they would otherwise have to pay for.

If a band or someone offers a free download of their music, that is NOT stealing. "Downloading" the entire "Beggars Banquet" by the Stones using bit torrent software is.

[cybersnyder]

I personally don't download music but I pay $9.99 for an MOG subscription and rarely buy anything now. Besides the music I already own most everything coming out now is one hit wonders that I don't care about on the long term. Today's CDs typically have two good songs and a bunch of filler. Nobody wants to spend $15 on those. It's almost difficult to find a CD if you want to buy so then you have to buy online. Oh, if you're a kid that doesn't have a credit card it makes it very difficult to buy online. But you can install torrent software and get it for free. So what do you do? Download for free or try to get your parent's credit card?

The industry has changed. You make money by touring not by recording an album and collecting royalties. Hate to say it, but every other industry has changed with the times. Musicians are not exempt.

[TRichardsbass]

Cyber dude, while the biz did make a few errors along the way, there is a huge difference in something that is intellectual property versus real property. You can't download a house. I own it until I either sell it to you. You cannot have my house, even if you want it.

Music has always been intellectual property. Its not the medium, its the idea. Do I buy a lot of CDs today? No, and most of that is because if I really want a song I can do like we did when we were kids, buy the single! Or in this case, download it for a buck on iTunes.

If you play in a gigging band, you should know that the rate of pay for a regular local band playing covers has not changed in 15 years, and with inflation has actually gone down!

This isn't about labels. My corporate friends recognized that they didn't think it out thoroughly enough when they went to digital product.

Oh, and a kid doesn't need a credit card. 97% of all legal music downloading is done on iTunes. Mom and dad can buy you an iTunes gift card so online downloads are okay.

Kids will be kids. When one kid tells 'em that he got 17000 songs on his iPod for nuthin' and then tells him how, the next kid will do the same thing.

I am not asking to be a mega star, just get paid for the work I did and the intellectually property I rightfully created and own.

[superbassman2000]

Originally Posted by erock138

Debate that it's not theft, whatever have you. At the end of the day, you are taking food out of musicians mouths

I don't entirely believe this. A lot of contracts that musicians sign transfers the ownership of the songs to the record label. The record labels tell us that it takes food out of the artist's mouth because they are easier to sympathize with. Not to say this is 100% the case, but this is largely the case.

Originally Posted by larry

So if everyone just decided that forming giant mobs and looting stores was a good idea, and it became commonplace, would you tell store owners that this is the new business model and they need to adapt?

no, the store owners wouldn't need anyone to tell them that. They are currently being looted. To answer your question, yes. If the police force was somehow incapacitated and people were looting stores, yes, the store owner would need to find a new way to keep theft out, be it locking doors, loading the shotgun, whatever. They aren't going to run out into the streets yelling "come on guys, knock it off!"

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

I may be in the minority, but I bet when all those kids start trying to make a living with their music they will realize they just created a society of musicians who ONLY do it for the love of music. And then they will realize that you will have to toil at some very tedious, meaningless, low pay job just to be able to afford to record and release your own stuff. Eventually they will find it too hard to do, and since music won't be paying the bills....

so these kids will have to start writing/playing/recording for the sheer love of music? horrific. These kids won't be able to afford studio time but instead have to find another way to record, such as DIY, and learning recording skills themselves? bleak.

Originally Posted by cybersnyder

The industry has changed. You make money by touring not by recording an album and collecting royalties. Hate to say it, but every other industry has changed with the times. Musicians are not exempt.

This is what I agree with.
I agree that music piracy needs to be addressed, but at the same time, the current arguments are really not convincing to anyone. The music industry is spending their time poorly--they should find a new solution to this all. Maybe they should stop buying autotune and pro tools and just find musicians who do it right the first time. That'll save themselves some money...

In the end, music as a profession is a relatively new invention. Humans have been singing since they were [created, evolved, etc] and we continue to do it now. Only in the last 600 years or so (out of the millions that we have been around) have people been trying to cash in on it. We are starting to find out that we all can do it, and that is de-valuing the dollar amount of music. People are acting like this is the death of music, but it's just the other way around. Music is growing. 400 years ago, only the rich could take music lessons, and now, almost everyone has access to it. If the music industry wants to keep making money, they need to address the evolution of music in terms of our culture. I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but in the real world, the phrase "evolve or die" has some gravitas to it.