Informal Lava Cable comparo

VroomVroom · #1 03-23-2012, 02:55 PM

Hey Folks,

Had some fun last night doing an A/B/C listening test with a few different Lava cables.

Basses: Fender Squire Precision, ash/maple & 90's Ken Smith Burner fretless, maple w/ alder center, maple neck, rosewood board.

Rig: Genz Benz (Cleveland) St(r)eam(lin)er 900 > Bergantino HD112.

Cables & thoughts:

ELC: Big, full, fat, punchy. Great overall sound, and we kept coming back to it as a reference.

Ultramafic: WIDE open. Seems to go very, very low....very very high, and everywhere in between. I can see why Lava brags about this one. This will bring out everything - good and bad - in the bass.

Soar: Seems mid-scooped, especially in comparison to the Ultramafic, but even against the ELC. Wonderful sound, for sure, but it was surprisingly our least favorite.

Bottom line (heh heh): Ultramafic FTW, but not by much....especially considering cost. The ELC is a great cable, seems to be virtually indestructible, and for CDO guys like me, it's black. The Ultramafic is purple. You cannot help but draw attention to yourself when using this cable.

Personally, the Ultramafic is worth having in the bag. If you splurge on one cable, make it this one without hesitation. Use it when tone is paramount....recording, showcase gigs, etc. Otherwise, I'm a huge fan of the ELC. Totally my any-and-every gig type of cable. Great sound, durable, and just in case "durable" fails, it's the cheapest of the three to replace.

RocketMusic · #2 03-23-2012, 03:26 PM

Nice! Your impressions of the Ultramafic definitely mates up with my ears. I've yet to hear an ELC, but I'll have to get some of those in here...

Thanks for the review, Jerry!

Darkstrike · #3 03-23-2012, 04:39 PM

I have a Clear Connect, I think.

Can't say for tone, but it's been very reliable, best cable I ever had.

LightGroove · #4 03-23-2012, 06:46 PM

Jerry...would you be willing to record these various cables? Just curious how each of us would perceive these.. still not even 50% convinced a cable really matters...

RocketMusic · #5 03-24-2012, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightGroove

Jerry...would you be willing to record these various cables? Just curious how each of us would perceive these.. still not even 50% convinced a cable really matters...

The keyboard player in my band is the same way. He's all proud that he just dropped $2500 on a new board, but he won't part with more than $15 for a cable. I'm not sure what part of "signal chain" doesn't ring with him, but it's absolutely a real thing that your ears can hear. Your signal chain, just like a real chain, is only as strong as the weakest link. For gear heads who don't care about their cables... the weakest link is usually their cables.

There are three main things that effect the signal quality of a cable: the copper wire itself and how it's configured (solid, braided, etc.), the insulator, and the connectors. The insulator is what usually makes a cheap cable sound cheap. What should theoretically be a perfect insulator (i.e. zero conductance) is always a dialectric in practice (poor conductor, but good supporter of electric fields). In other words, it's a capacitor. What does capacitance do to a cable? It creates a filter (much like a tone knob on a passive bass). A long, cheap cable will sound like you've rolled off your tone knob when compared to a cable with a better insulator (i.e. lower capacitance per foot).

I can't express strongly enough how important is a good cable (both the instrument AND the speaker cable).

3506string · #6 03-24-2012, 08:43 AM

$125 for a 20' instrument cable.

RocketMusic · #7 03-24-2012, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3506string

$125 for a 20' instrument cable.

I agree that can seem a bit staggering if you're used to buying $15 cables all your life. But, heck, even the $40-50 cables (like the Lava Clear Connect) offer a noticeable tonal improvement.

Just think about your overall investment in your rig. It's not uncommon for a guy to have $2-3K in his instrument and another $1-2K in his amp rig. So we're talking your typical TB gear head carrying $3-5K worth of gear into a club gig. What's $100 compared to all that? Especially when skimping on cables is absolutely making all that nice gear sound worse than it is capable of sounding?

Would you put $50 tires on a Maserati? It's all just rubber at some point, right? I mean, really. How much better could a $300 tire be?!?

bongomania · #8 03-24-2012, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketMusic

The keyboard player in my band is the same way. He's all proud that he just dropped $2500 on a new board, but he won't part with more than $15 for a cable. I'm not sure what part of "signal chain" doesn't ring with him, but it's absolutely a real thing that your ears can hear. Your signal chain, just like a real chain, is only as strong as the weakest link. For gear heads who don't care about their cables... the weakest link is usually their cables.

There are three main things that effect the signal quality of a cable: the copper wire itself and how it's configured (solid, braided, etc.), the insulator, and the connectors. The insulator is what usually makes a cheap cable sound cheap. What should theoretically be a perfect insulator (i.e. zero conductance) is always a dialectric in practice (poor conductor, but good supporter of electric fields). In other words, it's a capacitor. What does capacitance do to a cable? It creates a filter (much like a tone knob on a passive bass). A long, cheap cable will sound like you've rolled off your tone knob when compared to a cable with a better insulator (i.e. lower capacitance per foot).

I can't express strongly enough how important is a good cable (both the instrument AND the speaker cable).

There are a few facts in there, but many factual errors as well. I don't want to be "Mr. Negative" in your sponsored forum, so I am reluctant to go into all the details. But I would ask you to do a little more research on the subject.

RocketMusic · #9 03-24-2012, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

There are a few facts in there, but many factual errors as well. I don't want to be "Mr. Negative" in your sponsored forum, so I am reluctant to go into all the details. But I would ask you to do a little more research on the subject.

Knock yourself out, you won't hurt my feelings! I do have a master's degree in EE, but I will be the first to admit that it's been 15 years since I've done any in-depth technical thinking. I am no doubt beeing loose with some terminology, and would happily be corrected.

bongomania · #10 03-24-2012, 09:13 AM

OK--but again, please know that I'm not trying to be a pain, just trying to keep some facts straight.

Here I did some spectrum analysis of cables:
Analysis of Audio Cables
Here I did some distortion analysis (testing whether tone was changed):
How do different cables handle transient spikes?
Here I discuss the question of capacitance:
Effects of multiple cables in series?

One thing I didn't go into as much, because I am still doing research on this point, is that there are several factors affecting capacitance, not just the insulator. For one VERY common example, the actual wire diameter affects capacitance, and it is common for a cheap cable to have the thinnest possible wire internally, regardless of the insulation thickness. So cheap cables very often have lower capacitance! IOW, yes insualation matters, but even "top tier" cables with "top tier" insulation end up having higher capacitance, just due to the wire diameter internally. So there is zero connection between capacitance and price or perceived quality.

RocketMusic · #11 03-24-2012, 10:26 AM

Wow. That's a bold final statement.

I'm glad that we agree that a cable has a set of electrical properties driven largely by material choice and construction. Whew, that was my main point! And, yeah, I wouldn't necesarily equate "higher price" with "better" all the time or even most of the time. I just want to dissuade people from thinking that the cable does not matter. It absolutely does matter. I encourage people to experiment and find the one that sounds best to them. It just so happens that the one I like best cost $100.

There's an engineering firm in Roanoke, VA, that has made it their business to measure and document various instrument cables and guitar pickups. They actually spent an entire day in our store measuring all kinds of cables and pickups a couple years ago. They make what I think of as an "active" cable (even though it's not active, there's no battery required). They have a small passive circuit that they put inline near one end of the cable, and it basically eliminates the capacitance of the cable. With a passive electric guitar with single coils (like a strat), the differrence between that cable and any other cable is mind blowing.

With active basses, the cable differences become more subtle than that. But the differrences are definitely there if you're open minded and use your ears.

bongomania · #12 03-24-2012, 10:34 AM

...even though those differences cannot be measured in any way, and are disproven in every formal test.

BTW the active cable brand you mention was probably"Atlantic Quality Design", and they were included in my tests. There is no passive device that can eliminate capacitance that way.

RocketMusic · #13 03-24-2012, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

...even though those differences cannot be measured in any way, and are disproven in every formal test.

BTW the active cable brand you mention was probably"Atlantic Quality Design", and they were included in my tests. There is no passive device that can eliminate capacitance that way.

Say what? Who says you can't measure the electrical properties of a cable? That's crazy. Do you really mean they can be measured but with no discernable difference? I'd disagree with that, but I'd at least be open minded to the argument.

If I were taking measurements and every cable measured the same, I'd question my measuring technique before I assumed that every cable is the same. If nothing else, our ears are a type of measument device. And I promise you they measure differently using my personal pair of measuring devices.

And it's not me just wanting more expensive cables to sound better. Here are my cable preferences in descending order (having not yet heard an ELC):

Ultramafic ($100-ish)
Clear Connect ($40-ish)
Soar ($80-ish)
Monster ($50-ish)

bongomania · #14 03-24-2012, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketMusic

Who says you can't measure the electrical properties of a cable?

Not me.

Quote:

Do you really mean they can be measured but with no discernable difference? I'd disagree with that, but I'd at least be open minded to the argument.

Yes, that is what I meant. When capacitance is significantly minimized by the use of a buffer, there are no measurable differences in signal transfer at audio wavelengths.

Quote:

If I were taking measurements and every cable measured the same, I'd question my measuring technique before I assumed that every cable is the same.

Me too. You're welcome to examine my methodology, it's described in detail in those links.

Quote:

If nothing else, our ears are a type of measument device.

unfortunately what we hear is not a pure representation of the waves that entered our ears. First the signal is filtered by the pattern-recognition processor in our brain.

RocketMusic · #15 03-24-2012, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

Not me.

Yes, that is what I meant. When capacitance is significantly minimized by the use of a buffer, there are no measurable differences in signal transfer at audio wavelengths.

Me too. You're welcome to examine my methodology, it's described in detail in those links.

unfortunately what we hear is not a pure representation of the waves that entered our ears. First the signal is filtered by the pattern-recognition processor in our brain.

Interesting. Well, hey, I appreciate the info, and I will absolutely continue to cogitate on it. Thanks!

bongomania · #16 03-24-2012, 01:52 PM

Thank you for being a good sport about it. Not everyone responds peaceably to this line of discussion.

Incidentally, though it probably sounds like my mind is made up on certain conclusions, I'm always open to data from more rigorous tests with better test equipment. Also what I really need to set up is a carefully controlled double-blind test, to positively confirm whether we can repeatably hear things that ordinary test equipment can't pick up.

RocketMusic · #17 03-24-2012, 02:05 PM

Yeah, double blind is probably where it's at. I saw some of your conclusions about the interaction of the cables with the instrument's electronics possibly having some impact, and I could totally buy that. So what I think of as my favorite cables may just be my favorite cables with a certain bass (or rig for that matter)... who knows? I just have a hard time discounting my lying ears.

oren · #18 03-24-2012, 03:05 PM

I think Cyrus' links to his cable tests are well worth reading. And I've found his compressor reviews very interesting too - http://www.ovnilab.com/

That said, I'm always willing to pay at least some premium for a well made cable using quality components. There are few ways I'd less rather spend my time than chasing down which cord has gone bad when I'm holding up the start of the first set and everyone is glaring. Been there, done that, learned the lesson!

LightGroove · #19 03-24-2012, 03:12 PM

Wow Bongo... Thats a lot of work. Thank you!

Kind of validated where my mind is. I guess it goes back to tone woods and strings and everything else. What Ive discovered is if we find ourselves satisfied with a particular item of interest it does what we want it to do or sounds like we want it to sound..thats why we like it. This in turn typically brings about satisfaction and hopefully confidence in which we play and ultimately (hopefully) sound better. Now will 99.99% of audience members be able to discern.. nope Same with recording.. Ive swapped a few cable throughout a recording project we're doing and I cant tell you a single difference.

Now I will say I prefer a slightly better cable for improved soldering and connections..this seems to be my primary issue with cheaper products.

VroomVroom · #20 03-24-2012, 03:54 PM

Holy crap.

Well, I did say, "informal," but nonetheless I'll firm up my stance a bit, for whatever it may be worth. I do trust my ears. And those of technical pros and peers in the realm of producing music. They've gotten me through over 25 years doing paid gigs as a bass player, so whether or not they play tricks on me, I'll be the cat that skips the spectrum analyzer part.

Before I buy a cable, I ask myself the same question I ask when considering a bass, an amp, a cab, a set of strings, etc. Does it sound good? Now, I don't do that in a vacuum....I try to create more constants than variables when comparing it to others. That will usually net an initial purchase, and there is a second question. Does it work? Can it handle the rigor of live and studio work? Folks stepping on it...winds, undwinds, yanks & pulls, connects, disconnects, etc.? If that answer is no....and there have been plenty of those...it's back to the drawing board. And, undeniably, there is a third value...somewhat of a subjective and tangential one. Who makes it? I subscribe wholly to the notion of supporting small companies who do things well...even more so if their products are sourced, assembled, and supported locally and/or domestically.

But, back to the basics. If it sounds good, and it doesn't crap out on a date...I don't rely on much more data when opening the wallet.

For all of those reasons, I'm a fan of Lava...certainly the brand, if not all of their products. And it's for those same reasons why you won't find cables by other well-known brands....both more expensive and cheaper, by the way, in my gig bag.

Have I used cheap cables? Oh, youbetcha. But I also spent many years gigging Ibanez and Peavey basses. Do they work? Of course they work. That said, over the years - and admittedly as my income has allowed - my tastes have narrowed, my margin for error has decreased, and I prefer to spend as much of my time as possible making music with tools that allow that process to flow without interruption. For better or worse, my reputation as a player has been forged on my sound, just as much as my ability to show up on time, not be a jerk, and to hopefully play most of the right notes in most of the right places. I wouldn't remotely consider jeopardizing that. (Not to sway things, but...bring in the mechanic for a second and examine his toolbox. What's in there...Snap-on, or Harbor Freight?)

So....everyone has opinions and a methodology. I totally respect that, and my spirit here is sharing my perspective...if it's not valuable, no sweat for either of us. However, I would ask one thing before you make a decision:

We're musicians, right? Get out of the lab and head down to your music store. Try some different cables, exclusive of price, and see what offers a nice breeze up your skirt. If it's the $15 one, rock on. Just don't be surprised if your ears happen to trick you.