Informal Lava Cable comparo - Page 2

nostatic · #21 03-24-2012, 06:34 PM

My #1 priority in a cable is that it will not fail on a gig. After that it probably is color and does the connector look cool

I can't really make a definitive statement about tone. Too many variables and my ears have been beaten up over the years. My favorite cable of all time is actually the Klotz TM Stevens for the following reasons:

1) it hasn't failed at a gig (knock on wood)
2) it coils easily and isn't a stiff pita on stage
3) I like the machined aluminum cables ends

I'm willing to give up some % of tone (real or theoretical) for usability and reliability.

LightGroove · #22 03-24-2012, 07:04 PM

Well stated Jerry. I dont consider myself remotely close to your experience or ability so appreciate your thoughts no doubt. You hit on something close to my perspective. I much rather invest in something I know wont fail and will hopefully support a smaller guy.. What I dont or prob will never get is how this can then be translated into a cable is warmer or fatter or yada yada yada... Are they not simple conductors of whats being sent through them.. I guess to further my thought..what about wireless.. do you mean to tell me certain wireless devices will alter things? Or better yet the air the signal flies through alters it somehow?

Again I would love to hear these respective cables recorded with the same everything and use my ears to determine...ala gregs shootouts

On another note this reminds me of a Jbass shootout I came across a few years back. A guy recorded a variety of basses..high and and not and tried getting folks to figure out which was which. I dont think a single person nailed it... so again we hear what we want and hopefully what we like.

LilRay · #23 03-25-2012, 09:46 AM

I will post this not to challenge opinions within the thread but moreso to add my experience in a similar situation.

For those unaware, I've been studying leathercraft. Anyone knows that you can hit the local music store and buy a leather guitar strap from $15 to $75 dollars depending. That strap will hold an instrument just fine. However handmade (not personalized) items can reach 2-3 times that cost. You pay for attention to detail, and personal service.

FWIW anyway.

God Bless, Ray

funkboy5 · #24 03-28-2012, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketMusic

The keyboard player in my band is the same way. He's all proud that he just dropped $2500 on a new board, but he won't part with more than $15 for a cable. I'm not sure what part of "signal chain" doesn't ring with him, but it's absolutely a real thing that your ears can hear. Your signal chain, just like a real chain, is only as strong as the weakest link. For gear heads who don't care about their cables... the weakest link is usually their cables.

There are three main things that effect the signal quality of a cable: the copper wire itself and how it's configured (solid, braided, etc.), the insulator, and the connectors. The insulator is what usually makes a cheap cable sound cheap. What should theoretically be a perfect insulator (i.e. zero conductance) is always a dialectric in practice (poor conductor, but good supporter of electric fields). In other words, it's a capacitor. What does capacitance do to a cable? It creates a filter (much like a tone knob on a passive bass). A long, cheap cable will sound like you've rolled off your tone knob when compared to a cable with a better insulator (i.e. lower capacitance per foot).

I can't express strongly enough how important is a good cable (both the instrument AND the speaker cable).

Thanks for reinforcing this concept for me/us. I too often hesitate when I see some of the cable prices, which can be completely out the box. I've been using George L's but I'm always curious to see what else is out there.

RocketMusic · #25 03-28-2012, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funkboy5

Thanks for reinforcing this concept for me/us. I too often hesitate when I see some of the cable prices, which can be completely out the box. I've been using George L's but I'm always curious to see what else is out there.

Hey, my pleasure! I still quite firmly believe that the cable absolutely matters. My ears tell me so. I guess where I stepped off into dangerous waters was trying to explain why. My geeky EE brain just wants a rational explanation that makes sense, and I'm pretty sure I'm onto one (based on my own understanding as well as numerous conversations with some heavy duty cats who know their stuff much better than I do). But I have no scientific evidence to support said theory, that is a fact.

mwbonsall · #26 03-28-2012, 05:14 PM

I can hear a difference, and I like having a really good cable. I took my new Ultramafic to my local music store (where I basically grew up) and had Noel A/B it using a stock Strat and another good quality cable. Everyone could hear the difference. The other cable was brighter, but the highs were kind of harsh and brittle. The Ultramafic has smoother upper mids and highs (that’s the best way I can describe it). The Strat just sings with it.

The difference on my active bass is less obvious, but there is a difference. This is a killer cable regardless just based on the construction and heft. Sorry my birthday present stirred up such a controversy.

Mark

LightGroove · #27 03-29-2012, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketMusic

Hey, my pleasure! I still quite firmly believe that the cable absolutely matters. My ears tell me so. I guess where I stepped off into dangerous waters was trying to explain why. My geeky EE brain just wants a rational explanation that makes sense, and I'm pretty sure I'm onto one (based on my own understanding as well as numerous conversations with some heavy duty cats who know their stuff much better than I do). But I have no scientific evidence to support said theory, that is a fact.

Thanks Greg... thats what Im saying.. why not do a "shootout" and prove your point? Your wonderful work has convinced me of things regarding tonewood and such...if this is so integral let her rip.

RocketMusic · #28 03-29-2012, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightGroove

Thanks Greg... thats what Im saying.. why not do a "shootout" and prove your point? Your wonderful work has convinced me of things regarding tonewood and such...if this is so integral let her rip.

I'm not sure it'll come through in a recording process, the differences are subtle and will probably get lost. I'll see if I can capture it, but I'm not expecting any huge difference to come through that way...

VroomVroom · #29 03-29-2012, 06:04 PM

If I can make the time, I may do this, with more of a live slant...just me and my audio recorder vs. the bass, cable, and amp. That said...and not to sound like a jerk....it hasn't been a priority since I'm already convinced.

Ultimately, the best way to do this is to do what I did... test for yourself. Nothing more telling than your own ears as things happen.

bongomania · #30 03-29-2012, 10:04 PM

The problem with "shootouts" is they are never, ever done in a way that avoids bias. When the person playing the bass knows what cable they are using, it affects how they play, and what they listen for. Like in one popular demo video, the player says "notice how much fuller the low end is with this cable" as he plays a run of lower notes.

In his mind he was probably not even trying to fool anybody, he was just trying to show how good the lows sound; but he didn't play the same way with the other cable.

I totally support testing with your ears, as long as you can remove expectation bias. This requires at least single-blind testing, where someone else is swapping the cables from behind a curtain or something, without giving the player/listener any visual OR verbal cues that would let them know which cable is being used. Yes this is difficult--for example you can't do it by yourself; and there's no easy way to prevent the person playing the bass from seeing what cable is plugged into the bass. But if you fail to remove bias, the test doesn't prove anything.

But naturally everyone likes what they like, and hears what they hear, and if you like what you hear, there's no arguing with that!

RocketMusic · #31 03-30-2012, 09:45 AM

Here's me playing the same thing on my fretless Roscoe (apologies in advance for the cat killing!) through 4 different cables. The differences in these recordings are even more subtle than they are in person, but I can still hear them. Listen to the character of the notes, how big and warm (or hollow and cold) are they in each take? Also listen for harshness vs. smoothness in the top end.

I went direct into my M-Audio FastTrack Ultra 8R USB interface, so there's no REDDI or other DI in use here. The sample rate was 96kHz/24-bit, and the exported WAV files are 96kHz/24-bit.

There's not a drop of EQ, reverb or anything else on these recordings. I'd usually at least cut 30Hz and below on the master bus, but I didn't even do that. So depending on what speakers you're using to listen to this, you might hear even more dramatic differences than I do through my studio monitors (which roll off around 56 Hz). Please, please, please do not listen for differences through laptop speakers or crappy PC speakers. You will not hear any differences that way. A nice set of headphones or studio monitors is the way to go. Also, make sure your machine's audio settings are as close to 96kHz/24-bit as you can get.

My playing is still a variable, meaning this is four separate performances that I tried to play as similarly as I could. I originally tried recording one performance and then "re-amping" it through the 4 different cables, but the differences really got lost by the time the signal had gone through twice as much cable and been A/D'd, D/A'd & then A/D'd again. So 4 separate performances is the best I could do.

I still haven't captured the differences as well as you can hear them here in person (based on what I'm hearing through my studio monitors), but hopefully this will give you an idea. I'll share which cable was used in which take later so that I don't color your opinion now. Here they are in no particular order.

"Moon Over Cable #1"
"Moon Over Cable #2"
"Moon Over Cable #3"
"Moon Over Cable #4"

VroomVroom · #32 03-30-2012, 10:36 AM

Nice, Greg. As an appendix, I'll do the same this weekend, from a more live perspective.

GMSweet · #33 03-31-2012, 06:45 AM

Greg, I appreciate the test. I pulled the samples into Sonar at 24/96 and gave them a listen. I don't have the most revealing headphones (decent Denon's; nothing special), but here's my take:

I listened to each track fully (eyes closed), I heard a few subtle differences with predominantly in the note "bloom" and "attack" qualities. Taking another listen (eyes open) I can see the differences in the wave forms. However, the subtle differences to me sound like they could just be performance differences and nothing revealing in terms cable claims. They all sound like competent cables and the decision for me and my ears would be on qualities such as price, construction, flexibility, warranty, etc.

I would love to be able to be "hands on" to pick a cable out, but then again I'm still using a silly Monster cable from 10 years ago because I'm too frugal to move on from a working cable. In house tests with other cables haven't revealed a large difference for me so I keep sticking with what works. 99% of the time I'm using an active preamp which I believe levels the playing field. I do believe that those running passive basses will hear a larger difference in the cables as will those pesky skinny string players.

I look forward to Jerry's "shootout" as well to determine if I can hear greater variation.

Matt

RocketMusic · #34 03-31-2012, 07:47 AM

Thanks, Matt - yeah, that's the way I feel about three of them. I hear very subtle differences in three of them, but the fourth one really sounds different (in a bad way) to me. Have fun guessing which one is the stinker of the bunch (not that it's THAT bad).

GMSweet · #35 03-31-2012, 07:58 AM

I'll give them another listen when I'm back at home with more discerning ears; I like the challenge.

miner · #36 03-31-2012, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketMusic

Here's me playing the same thing on my fretless Roscoe (apologies in advance for the cat killing!) through 4 different cables. The differences in these recordings are even more subtle than they are in person, but I can still hear them. Listen to the character of the notes, how big and warm (or hollow and cold) are they in each take? Also listen for harshness vs. smoothness in the top end.

I went direct into my M-Audio FastTrack Ultra 8R USB interface, so there's no REDDI or other DI in use here. The sample rate was 96kHz/24-bit, and the exported WAV files are 96kHz/24-bit.

There's not a drop of EQ, reverb or anything else on these recordings. I'd usually at least cut 30Hz and below on the master bus, but I didn't even do that. So depending on what speakers you're using to listen to this, you might hear even more dramatic differences than I do through my studio monitors (which roll off around 56 Hz). Please, please, please do not listen for differences through laptop speakers or crappy PC speakers. You will not hear any differences that way. A nice set of headphones or studio monitors is the way to go. Also, make sure your machine's audio settings are as close to 96kHz/24-bit as you can get.

My playing is still a variable, meaning this is four separate performances that I tried to play as similarly as I could. I originally tried recording one performance and then "re-amping" it through the 4 different cables, but the differences really got lost by the time the signal had gone through twice as much cable and been A/D'd, D/A'd & then A/D'd again. So 4 separate performances is the best I could do.

I still haven't captured the differences as well as you can hear them here in person (based on what I'm hearing through my studio monitors), but hopefully this will give you an idea. I'll share which cable was used in which take later so that I don't color your opinion now. Here they are in no particular order.

"Moon Over Cable #1"
"Moon Over Cable #2"
"Moon Over Cable #3"
"Moon Over Cable #4"

So you did a test that would eliminate every variable except the cable and didn't hear a difference, so you assumed the test was faulty.because you didn't get the results you wanted. Then you introduced more variables into the test so you would get the results you wanted?

A better idea might be to get a friend to switch the cables out while you are blindfolded. Record maybe 10 takes without anyone but your friend knowing which take was which cable (so you can not know which cable you are using while you are recording, or which cable when listening to the recordings. Then try to identify the different cables. If there is any discernable difference among the cables you should at least be able to group the recordings together by the same cable, even if you don't know which cable they are. You might end up saying recordings 1, 4 ,
5, and 9 are cable A, and recordings 2, and 3 are cable B. It would work best if your friend used a random cable for each take, so you may have 5 recordings of one cable, but onyx one of another. It would take some of the expectation out of it.

RocketMusic · #37 03-31-2012, 10:03 AM

I don't know what to tell ya. The differences are subtle, but they're there and it's more noticeable in person through a real bass rig. I don't know what else to say, other than everyone is welcome to their own opinion. Doesn't hurt my feelings either way. Enjoy whatever cable you like.

VroomVroom · #38 03-31-2012, 02:36 PM

Good freakin' grief. Seriously? We're not trying to cure cancer here. Dig, or don't. Totally your call. But blind tests? 10 takes? Not gonna' happen, at least not on my watch. I don't select basses or amps that way, why would I do so with a cable? I plug in, I play, I listen. I decide. Bada boom, even if that is simplifying/exaggerating a bit. If there are differences in my playing, they're totally unintentional, and are no different than what I'd do from take to take on a rehearsal, gig, or session date. That's called the human element, and it's not something we can - or should - try to eliminate. It's what separates live musicians from programmed music. If you need to tunnel that deep before making a decision, I'll be the knucklehead that suggests you're missing the point. Spend that energy more positively - go out and get a gig and play music with other players, perhaps. Whether you're playing a $200 bass with a $15 cable, or a $5k bass with a $200 cable, life is too short...let's make some music already!

I'm really not trying to be a jerk here - honest - but let's take a step back. Most of the folks in my peer group have at least $2k into a bass, and roughly the same amount in an amp rig. These purchasing decisions are much more personal than objective...we buy what suits us. If you're staring at a minimum of $4k every time you load the car, doesn't it make sense to at least consider whether you might spend $50, $80, or even $100 on a cable? If you decide to stick with a $15 one...totally cool, but why not take a test drive for yourself? Extending that point...last week, when I tested with a friend, I sounded different than him going through a Squier P bass with the tone knob maxed. (I sounded like pure crap, actually..whereas he sounded musical.) Anyway, a cable is no different in that regard. Ultimately, it'll be personal choice, which applies across the board...cost, durability, sound, color...whatever part(s) of the overall equation apply to you.

Ok, that said, here are some tidbits from my end. Unrehearsed, one take each, except when using the Soar cable, where I totally hosed the line...even more so than on the other takes.

Sadowsky Metro J bass (volume maxed, blend centered, VTC @ ~ 8/10, no boost on bass or treble) into a Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0-12T (pre-gain @ 2 o'clock, volume @ 3 o'clock, all EQ knobs @ Noon, no signal shape, master @ 9 o'clock). Captured by my trusty M-Audio Microtrack 24/96, @ 24/96. All tracks amplified equally in Audacity, and exported as 320kbps mp3 files. The only true variable is that my dog was in the room for the ELC take, and he left before I recorded the other two. I take that as a reflection on my playing, not the choice of cable.

Lava ELC - Sister Sadie

Lava Soar - Sister Sadie

Lava Ultramafic - Sister Sadie

ubone · #39 03-31-2012, 03:05 PM

+1000,000,000 with Jerry's opinion.. Real Simple folks.. You fret about those bitchin basses you can finally afford, and upgraded the beecheeeziz out of your rig so that fine bass you're holding will sound as good as it looks, but you're gonna wuss out on your connections??? That's kinda like pouring two pounds of sugar in a Ferrari's gas tank and thinking it should still run like your running her on premium..

I'm taking Jerry's & Greg's comparison tests to heart. Just ordered a fine cable from Greg, that and 4 sets of strings... Now who want's to start bitching about DR Dragon Skins???

nostatic · #40 03-31-2012, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VroomVroom

The only true variable is that my dog was in the room for the ELC take, and he left before I recorded the other two.

Well, as has been detailed in the literature, there are enzymes in dog saliva that catalyze metabolic transference reactions through quantum tunneling that perturb subjective sonic sibilance (SSS). This clearly would skew your results and as a result not only is this test null and void, but you have affected tests on days of future passed. Unless you use the blue cable. And play with a Moody strap.