Live multi-track recording?

RocketMusic · #1 06-15-2010, 05:19 PM

Oh, man!! Danny and I are getting more ambitious in our recording gear...

We've been using a really nice digital mixer (Yamaha O1V) as the heart of our live PA system for a few years now. We've been able to get some great "off-the-board" mixes with our amp-less band The Kind. As long as the house was mixed properly, you can just grab the analog R & L channels of the final mix and record that into a cheap stereo digital recorder. Bing, bam, boom, you're done.

That's great for an amp-less band, but it falls apart for a loud rock unit like The Electric Woodshed. The guitar amps are usually loud enough onstage that they don't need to be in the house mix, so any "off-the-board" mix you grab will not have guitars, and the bass and drums will probably be pretty weak, too.

As Danny and I have gotten more and more into multitrack recording in a studio setting, we've been yearning to be able to apply our mixing & mastering skills to live mixes of the Shed (plus whatever other band would be willing to pay us to do it for their live shows).

I think we've settled on our basic gear wish list to make it happen. It will mean upgrading our mixer to the Yamaha O1V96-VCM and adding a 24 track hard disk recorder (Fostex D2424LV-MK2). The upgraded mixer will allow us to export 16 tracks of raw digital audio to the hard disk recorder. Then we'll be able to mix those tracks to our heart's content after the gig in a post-production environment (i.e. Sonar!!!).

Seems like a grand plan to us! But I'm curious if anyone else out there has any live, digital multi-track recording experience that might suggest we consider some alternative gear?

Darkstrike · #2 06-15-2010, 05:58 PM

Subscribed just to watch the action.

RocketMusic · #3 06-15-2010, 06:00 PM

And on a mildly related note - is anyone hip to a really nice USB interface? I don't need or want a lot of channels, 2 will do. Imagine price is no object (not the case, but I want to know what's out there).

I've been using the Lexicon Alpha with some success, but I suspect it is the weak link in my studio recording signal chain at this point...

VroomVroom · #4 06-16-2010, 09:06 AM

This is awesome, Greg. I'd only muddy the waters on the multi-track discussion, other than to say I've been fortunate to watch some pros work their magic at a few gigs, with really impressive results. As you've already stated, a lot of the magic seems to be in close-mic'ing and limiting bleed-thru. I'm very anxious to see what the two of you guys do - I'm sure the output is going to be terrific.

USB. As I understand things - all usual disclaimers apply! - there's not a whole lot of difference in quality between cheap and expensive. The real hindrance is the inherent latency of the bus itself. For hacks like me, it's not an issue. But at the level of expectations you're talking about, I can appreciate that you'd want better. The consensus, again just from what I've learned, points to Firewire and a Mac if you want the best performance out of a portable setup. There's still latency - even with Firewire, and even on a Mac, but notably less so than via a Windows OS. I'm wondering if it might be best for you to just jump directly to that HD recorder, only using USB for transferring files for the production effort in Sonar?

Darkstrike · #5 06-16-2010, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketMusic

And on a mildly related note - is anyone hip to a really nice USB interface? I don't need or want a lot of channels, 2 will do. Imagine price is no object (not the case, but I want to know what's out there).

I've been using the Lexicon Alpha with some success, but I suspect it is the weak link in my studio recording signal chain at this point...

I've been using this with good effect, but I don't have much to compare it with.

You're probably looking for something more upscale, though.

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com...tem?sku=703328

RocketMusic · #6 06-16-2010, 09:37 AM

Eeeeek! Someone said Mac!! Run away!!

Thanks for your $.02, Jerry, much appreciated as always!!

I am actually looking for one that sounds better, latency isn't really a problem for my setup. The Lexicon Alpha tops out at 24 bit/48kHz, so I'm toying with the idea of finding something that increases the sample rate and/or increases the bandwidth of the analog sections.

I listen to profesional recordings, and the bass tones are just better than mine... that could obviously be due to a lot of things, but I've grown suspicious of the $79 interface that EVERYTHING I record runs through...

And this really is a tangent to my OP. The live multitracking is one issue, and this USB thing is for my studio setup...

VroomVroom · #7 06-16-2010, 10:09 AM

Again, as I understand it, the latency and analog bandwidth are related. If you're really looking to upgrade, it's probably worth considering a firewire interface now, or a short wait for some USB 3.0 action sometime soon. FWIW, I've got the same Alpha, and I prefer it to the more expensive M-Audio Fasttrack.

(BTW...full disclosure...I'm a Windoze guy at heart...but there's no doubting the Mac OS for music...and photography, for that matter.)

RocketMusic · #8 06-16-2010, 11:18 AM

Hmmmm... I know sampling rate and bandwidth are related, but really only at the high end. The Nyquist/Shannon Theorem says you need to sample at least twice as fast as the highest frequency content of the signal you're sampling. Everything under that upper frequency limit is no prob. Latency shouldn't have anything to do with it, that's just a function of the digital communications medium. The bandwidth limitations are determined upstream from that when the analog signal is being sampled.

The low end cutoff frequency is really a function of the analog circuitry design. Your typical run-of-the-mill USB interface specs 20-20kHz, but I've seen some nicer ones that get down under 10Hz on the low end. The only way to get that low in a producton product is to use tight tolerance parts that ain't cheap. Thus my suspicions of anything for $79...

Dynamic range is a big consideration, too. If you compare the Lexicon Alpha specs to the Lexicon Omega specs, there's quite a difference there... and only a $200 price difference. But I'm also curious about things like the RME Fireface UC, it seems to be the gold standard for USB interfaces as far as I can tell. But that's just based on me reading everyone's propaganda. I'd love to hear some real-world experience from someone who setup a PC-based studio. The RME would be quite a price jump ($79 to $1299), but you generally get what you pay for in this life... it's not out of the question for what I want to do...

RocketMusic · #9 06-16-2010, 02:07 PM

Oooh - I might have found my new studio interface: the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra 8R. It's got more channels than I need, but it's got some of the best audio specs I've seen. AND it's rack mounted, so I can slap it and an F1X into the rack in my home studio.

Dynamic Range: 107dB
Freq Response: 20-20,000 Hz, +/- 0.1dB
THD+N: 0.003%

As compared to the Lexicon Alpha:
Dynamic Range: 100dB (yep, 7dB less!!!)
Freq Response: 20-20,000 Hz, +/- 1dB (almost 1dB worse at the edges, less flat response)
THD+N: 0.125% (WAY more distortion)

And street price is a more reasonable $450 or so... I think I'm sold.

RocketMusic · #10 06-16-2010, 04:00 PM

Hey, Jerry - which FastTrack where you saying you don't like? Is it the little FastTrack? I was just checking M-Audio's site on that one, and they don't even call out the specs on that one... so they must be underwhelming...

The slightly pricier FastTrack Pro has these specs:
Dynamic Range: 100dB
Freq Response: 20-20,000 Hz, +/- 0.1dB
THD+N: 0.005%

That's roughly on par with the Lexicon Alpha. A little flatter freq response, a little bit less noise & distortion...

jimc · #11 06-16-2010, 04:48 PM

Presonus StudioLive. Has most of the main functionality of the Yamaha with an easier UI. Will record 16 audio tracks + stereo to a firewire equipped laptop. I have one and have been getting great recordings, other bands have been asking me to run FOH for them and record their shows. $1999 street but you can do better if you shop around.

RocketMusic · #12 06-16-2010, 04:53 PM

Cool, great suggestion! I hadn't heard of that one, so I'll go get educated right now!

Thanks!

**Bipslapper** · #13 06-16-2010, 05:44 PM

Attn: Greg, Jerry or anyone who uses Windoze machines but know in the back of their minds that Mac's are far superior- I learned on a Mac, switched to Windows in college (had to), graduated and bought PC's for work software (only to see the blue screen of death & frozen screens a billion times) & now have 2 Mac's with Intel dual core processors. I run Mac & Windows (on Parallels software) on same laptop and desktops and still have the Mac Os for Mac apps (web, email, music, Garageband, iPhoto, Word, etc..).

Win - Win scenario. Windoze runs better in both Macs. Music, email and web are much better with an Apple & am typing this on a Mac right now. I know that Apple computers are more expensive to purchase, but if it is time to upgrade your computers consider it; it is well worth it. Just Sayin.

So easy a caveman - bass player can even use it.

JOME77 · #14 06-16-2010, 06:23 PM

Cool stuff Greg! You're always raising the bar dude.

I've got a good friend that is a very good recording engineer. He actually has a Dove award for an album he produced (it's the equivalent of a Grammy in the Christian music realm).
At any rate, he has recently taken a day gig as the worship leader at a large local church. He's setup a real nice sounding live recording system at the church and they upload all of the services each week onto their web site. I'll give him a call and see if he has any suggestions on the topic. I know that they have the advantage of working out mic placement on a permanent set of drums and most of the instruments are run through an Aviom system but the guys a world of knowledge in the recording area and I'm sure that he could provide some good input.

It's all over my head. I've got enough challenges just using the Roland BR-600!

VroomVroom · #15 06-17-2010, 09:16 AM

Greg, your knowledge goes so far beyond mine that I feel like Pete's Caveman brother for even posting in this thread.

I am using the little cheapo M-Audio box. I believe it's been discontinued, as part of Digidesign's product line makeover. (Would you believe I work two blocks from them, and they've yet to give me anything?

)

And Pete, not to sidetrack this (too far). I'm an IT nerd by day. I like Windoze...supporting it has helped pay for a coupla' Roscoes.

I like Mac. I even like Eunuchs. There's a reason M$ stuff is used in a business environment. And there's a reason Mac is king when it comes to creative arts...but unless they fix some issues with their hardware, IMO their OS prowess will fail them in this area just like it did in the LAN/WAN markets. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to reset my damn iPhone (again) because of some memory leak that my local "genius" couldn't identify.

RocketMusic · #16 06-17-2010, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VroomVroom

(Would you believe I work two blocks from them, and they've yet to give me anything?

)

Shocking!! I say if the feds can extort $20 billion from BP, surely you and your public gig could put the screws to Digidesign enough to make them cough up a measly piece of gear?!?

VroomVroom · #17 06-17-2010, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketMusic

...put the screws to Digidesign enough to make them cough up a measly piece of gear?!?

I tried, believe me.

Closest I got was a tour of the facility. Definitely some braniacs there.

bobunit · #18 06-17-2010, 12:27 PM

Greg,
The M-Audio Fast Track Ultra 8R looks to be a pretty cool interface for a DAW based solution. Concerning live, what would your signal chain be? Would you be running mics independent of the board or would you be using the board as a 'pass thru' to allow the signal to go both FOH and to your DAW? I am making the assumption you are going DAW based rather than stand-alone hard disk (Fostex D2424LV-MK2).

RocketMusic · #19 06-17-2010, 12:34 PM

Nah, live will indeed be stand-alone harddisk. The FastTrack Ultra 8R really has nothing to do with that (it's for my home studio). Live, we'll go optical out of the mixing board straight into the hard disk recorder. I'm assuming we can send the individual tracks pre-fader, so we'll get the full-on signals regardless of how the house is mixed.

The HD recorder has a CF card that we can dump the raw tracks to right there at the venue. Then the next day we can bring that card into the studio (Hah! Really, our store - Rocket Studios!!) and start mixing.

We ordered the mixer a couple days ago. The stock one comes ready to output 8 channels digitally. We added a 16 channel expansion card that will get us up to the full 24 channel capability of the HD recorder. Overkill? Yep.

Anyone got an orchestra they need recorded?

tZer · #20 06-17-2010, 12:48 PM

I used a Delta 1010 I/O card and tracked directly into Sonar for my live multitrack experiment a few years ago. It worked pretty after I found the right balance of factors - mics, headphone mixes, and overall process.

I had 4 channels dedicated to the drums, then 1 ea for guitar, bass, keys and scratch vox.

We'd lay 'bed tracks' as a unit with the singer singing 'quietly' for scratch. Then the singer would record his real tracks over the bed tracks. We were able to capture really great, and very live feeling instrumental tracks and add solos and other overdubs very easily. We could multitrack as many as 10 songs in one, 2 1/2 to 3 hour jam session using this method. Then once we had a nice collection of songs recorded we could sit and play in the mixing room forever.