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06-10-2010, 11:03 AM
|  | Cogito Ergo Idiot | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: SF Bay Area, CA | | FWIW, here's an example of a chart I received for a hit this weekend. Pretty simple, although some highlights include the notation down in the ledger lines, and a few incorrect assumptions about note choice (another reason why it's always great to use your ear!). Finally, as hashed out in rehearsal, the written second-ending called for another verse that doesn't exist...one of those things you don't know until you play through the tune. If it's of value to anyone, I'll scan in my working copy of the chart, which includes penciled-in chicken scratch to make sure I play the tune correctly on the gig.
(Full credit to Rocio Guitard for the chart - she's an absolute wizard when it comes to this stuff. You should see her book - the one she uses for her own gigs. Flawless. Each chart is clear, concise, and offers all the information needed to make you, her, and the whole band sound good. I've sight-read through her tunes numerous times without issue. If only they could all be like that.  )
Last edited by VroomVroom : 06-10-2010 at 11:05 AM.
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06-10-2010, 11:11 AM
|  | Registered User
Owner, Rocket Music | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Blacksburg, VA | | | Pretty cool, Jerry! There's a lot going on in that one.
Starting at measure 5, the notation changes to those slash symbols on the staff... what's that all about? Is that another way of showing rhythm or something? |
06-10-2010, 11:32 AM
| | Cogito Ergo Idiot | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: SF Bay Area, CA | | | The slash notation is the common way of saying, "Here are the changes - go play the tune." Most chord charts you see will look like that. This one is kind of a hybrid, offering actual notation for the important stuff, with everything else either noted as "similar" or "continue", or basically just open to interpretation by the players.
The things I wrote in address the road map (no second ending on the repeat) and a few of the notes during the verses. Actually, I think I also wrote in an optional repeat on the last chorus. Kudos to C&C Music Factory for creating such cool stuff - and to the keyboard player on this date who caught them - for the note changes. This is one of those tunes where you can certainly sound good playing through without those subtleties, but when you include them, the whole band sounds better.
FYI/FWIW, I should have a recording of this next week. The young girl singing the tune is 13 years old, and she's actually stronger on those ridiculous high notes than Mariah Carey. It's amazing. |
06-10-2010, 11:44 AM
|  | Registered User | | Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Hampton Roads (Norfolk), VA. | | Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketMusic  Not that it's a competition |
Ha! Let it be.... Nothing wrong with competition as a motivator.  Bring it yo!!!!! 
-PE
__________________
P.Earth (Keeping the groove.... Grounded)
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." - Nietzsche |
06-10-2010, 12:02 PM
| | Registered User
Owner, Rocket Music | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Blacksburg, VA | | | Do the slashes actually convey some information though? They seem to be implying rhythm for somebody... is that what the chords guy (guitarist? keyboardist?) should roughly play rhythmically? Just curious...
Most of the chord charts I've dealt with are just chord names written inside measures. There's nothing resembling notation in there at all, no staff, no "notes"... so this is a new one on me! |
06-10-2010, 12:16 PM
| | Cogito Ergo Idiot | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: SF Bay Area, CA | | Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketMusic Do the slashes actually convey some information though? They seem to be implying rhythm for somebody... is that what the chords guy (guitarist? keyboardist?) should roughly play rhythmically? Just curious... | Generally, they relate to the time signature - three slashes in 3/4, four in 4/4 etc. Honestly, I haven't put much thought into the "why" - just seems generally accepted as filler so you can distinguish from one bar to another on the chart. Good question...I keep forgetting you were a damn engineer in a prior life.  Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketMusic Most of the chord charts I've dealt with are just chord names written inside measures. There's nothing resembling notation in there at all, no staff, no "notes"... so this is a new one on me! | You'll see more and more of 'em. "Oleo" in RB1 is the first tune that comes to mind. Essentially, anyhwere there isn't specific melodic (or harmonic) notation, you'll find the slashes. |
06-10-2010, 12:27 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Hampton Roads (Norfolk), VA. | | Jerry made me think of a few resources with the mention of repeats, endings, etc...
Some docs I've shared out b4:
And a couple killer web sites/pages:
And Jerry, I say post the chart with annotations if it's convenient, certainly will not hurt...
-PE
__________________
P.Earth (Keeping the groove.... Grounded)
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." - Nietzsche |
06-10-2010, 12:29 PM
| | Registered User
Owner, Rocket Music | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Blacksburg, VA | | Ah, I just looked up "Oleo". Yeah, I have seen those slashes before!! 
I guess I've just never seen them with the tails that make them look like eighth or sixteenth notes as on your "Emotions" chart... those look less like filler and more like rhythmic notation to me. I was imagining them to be drum sheet music or something.
Yessir, you're on the receiving end of my uber-analytical personality. Congratulations, and Enjoy!! |
06-10-2010, 12:30 PM
| | Cogito Ergo Idiot | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: SF Bay Area, CA | | | 'Coupla' more
FWIW, here's something I put together for a recording session last month. The process went like this:
Producer: "We want to do 'Hazy Shade...' Do you know it?
Me: (Ummm...) "Yes." (Always say yes, especially over the phone/via email. Even if the real answer is, "no," you have time to make it happen before they can find out. )
Producer: "Cool. See you in two days."
I then hit iTunes, downloaded the tune, and sat down to rough it out. Obviously a popular tune, and I didn't totally lie over the phone...I knew of it and didn't expect to have much trouble learning it. That evening I sat down with the practice amp, the bass, and some manuscript paper. A few hunt & pecks on the bass later, followed by a coupla' listen-backs and note-taking, the result is in the first attachment below.
After that I opened up Finale and made it look better...as shown in the second attachment.
Extra work? Definitely, but as Brian has alluded, it helps keep me sharp, and puts me in tune with the nuances of the song. Not that this one was a back-breaker by any means, but the part went down in one take. Not sure that would've happened had I not spent the 90 minutes up front. |
06-10-2010, 12:33 PM
| | Cogito Ergo Idiot | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: SF Bay Area, CA | | Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketMusic ...I guess I've just never seen them with the tails that make them look like eighth or sixteenth notes as on your "Emotions" chart... those look less like filler and more like rhythmic notation to me. I was imagining them to be drum sheet music or something. | Doh! My apologies for not being more specific on that - totally my fault. You nailed it, Greg. That's a 'tweener notation that is used when trying to convey specific rhythms, while the note choice is left up to the player(s). I've always suspected it originated with drum parts, but that's just a guess. On this particular part, it's certainly a form of shorthand. "Play the line like it's written at the top" sorta' thing. |
06-10-2010, 12:33 PM
| | Registered User
Owner, Rocket Music | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Blacksburg, VA | | Quote:
Originally Posted by PlanetEarth Jerry made me think of a few resources with the mention of repeats, endings, etc...
Some docs I've shared out b4: And a couple killer web sites/pages: And Jerry, I say post the chart with annotations if it's convenient, certainly will not hurt...
-PE | Oh, jeez, you've just destroyed the next decade of my life!! I HAVE to go study this stuff now 
Thanks a million for sharing, all you guys in the know!! |
06-10-2010, 12:35 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Hampton Roads (Norfolk), VA. | | | I think you're confusing slash notation with rhythmic notation (which has slashes as the note heads). As Jerry mentioned the slash notation will be indicative of the downbeats and time sig. you're playing in. The rhythmic notation typically shows a continuation of an already established pattern OR simply that pitch is interpretive but that there is a rhythmic pattern that needs to be supported.
FWIW: Syncopation by Ted Reed is a killer book (among others) to just read through and practice reading rhythms. It's really a drummers book but I find it to be a great way to kick back without an instrument and tap out the rhythms. Keeps ya sharp and is convenient to do just about anywhere/anytime.
Another random thought I've heard a consensus about among instructors - Not to count when your reading, use "Da dum" or something similar but stay away from reading it as 1-& 2-& or 1-e-&-a 2-e-&-a, etc. Same deal with tri-pa-let and/or 1-te-ta, 2-te-ta. I guess an analogy might be, the same way you hear changes in relationship to a key center you can think of rhythms in relationship to the downbeats; so when you're tapping your foot on the downbeats everything else is just a subdivision of the space between/around.
-PE
__________________
P.Earth (Keeping the groove.... Grounded)
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." - Nietzsche
Last edited by PlanetEarth : 06-10-2010 at 01:19 PM.
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06-10-2010, 12:52 PM
| | Registered User
Owner, Rocket Music | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Blacksburg, VA | | Quote:
Originally Posted by VroomVroom FWIW, here's something I put together for a recording session last month. The process went like this:
Producer: "We want to do 'Hazy Shade...' Do you know it?
Me: (Ummm...) "Yes." (Always say yes, especially over the phone/via email. Even if the real answer is, "no," you have time to make it happen before they can find out. )
Producer: "Cool. See you in two days."
I then hit iTunes, downloaded the tune, and sat down to rough it out. Obviously a popular tune, and I didn't totally lie over the phone...I knew of it and didn't expect to have much trouble learning it. That evening I sat down with the practice amp, the bass, and some manuscript paper. A few hunt & pecks on the bass later, followed by a coupla' listen-backs and note-taking, the result is in the first attachment below.
After that I opened up Finale and made it look better...as shown in the second attachment.
Extra work? Definitely, but as Brian has alluded, it helps keep me sharp, and puts me in tune with the nuances of the song. Not that this one was a back-breaker by any means, but the part went down in one take. Not sure that would've happened had I not spent the 90 minutes up front. | Lots to learn there, too! What do I walk away with? "Hey, I didn't know Paul Simon wrote that!" |
06-10-2010, 01:15 PM
|  | Registered User | | | | Quote:
Originally Posted by VroomVroom FWIW, here's an example of a chart I received for a hit this weekend. Pretty simple, although some highlights include the notation down in the ledger lines, and a few incorrect assumptions about note choice (another reason why it's always great to use your ear!). Finally, as hashed out in rehearsal, the written second-ending called for another verse that doesn't exist...one of those things you don't know until you play through the tune. If it's of value to anyone, I'll scan in my working copy of the chart, which includes penciled-in chicken scratch to make sure I play the tune correctly on the gig.
(Full credit to Rocio Guitard for the chart - she's an absolute wizard when it comes to this stuff. You should see her book - the one she uses for her own gigs. Flawless. Each chart is clear, concise, and offers all the information needed to make you, her, and the whole band sound good. I've sight-read through her tunes numerous times without issue. If only they could all be like that. ) | The agency I work with has the same sort of thing (he even uses the same font1). Makes it very easy to site read the tunes on the gig (special requests, etc.).
PS Playing an Earth Wind and Fire tribute show with full band (I believe 14 pieces) next Friday. THOSE charts I'm woodshedding! Whew! |
06-10-2010, 02:31 PM
| | Registered User
Owner, Rocket Music | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Blacksburg, VA | | Quote:
Originally Posted by PlanetEarth Ha! Let it be.... Nothing wrong with competition as a motivator. Bring it yo!!!!!
-PE | I just cracked 400 for the first time!! I'm coming for ya, Mother Lover!! |
06-10-2010, 02:44 PM
| | Cogito Ergo Idiot | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: SF Bay Area, CA | | Quote:
Originally Posted by KJung PS Playing an Earth Wind and Fire tribute show with full band (I believe 14 pieces) next Friday. THOSE charts I'm woodshedding! Whew! | Have fun, Ken! Here's hoping they don't do nasty stuff to you in favor of the darn horn players. Last summer I got to play "September" in 'G' and "Shining Star" in Eb. Bastages. |
06-10-2010, 03:14 PM
| | Registered User | | | | Quote:
Originally Posted by VroomVroom Have fun, Ken! Here's hoping they don't do nasty stuff to you in favor of the darn horn players. Last summer I got to play "September" in 'G' and "Shining Star" in Eb. Bastages. | A couple of key changes, but nothing nasty. Shining star in Eb... god help us! |
06-10-2010, 03:15 PM
| | Registered User | | | | | Speaking of key changes, have you seen the Real Book app for the iPhone. Totally crazy.... it can transpose any tune to any key. Only changes, no melody lines, but pretty cool to have all those tunes in every key in your pocket! |
06-10-2010, 03:43 PM
| | Cogito Ergo Idiot | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: SF Bay Area, CA | | | ^ You know, I've been meaning to talk about that nearly the entire length of this thread. Terrific app, and I'm continually amazed at the transposition goodness. True story - I've used this on two gigs now. The first one gave me a great learning tip - be sure the 'auto lock' setting on your phone is long enough. Doh! |
06-11-2010, 12:37 PM
| | Registered User
Owner, Rocket Music | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Blacksburg, VA | | Holy Crap, Brian!!! This game has been a tremendous help. I must have played it 40-50 times throughout the day yesterday, and I slowly but surely got better as the day progressed. But I didn't really realize how much better I'd gotten until just now... I just cracked open the Real Book to start thinking about recording "Afro Blue", and for the first time in my life I'm able to look at a piece of sheet music and see the notes for what they are. They're not just random dots on a staff, I now see "C", "D", "E", "F", etc.
I'm kinda speechless right now. And really, really thrilled!!  | | Thread Tools | Search this Thread | | | | 
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