What I've Been Doing Lately

RocketMusic · #1 02-28-2012, 06:51 PM

I've been a little scarce here on TB the past few days. I've had my face buried in user manuals and amps racks trying to optimize our PA system, eliminate all buzzing, and make our 24-track live sound as good as I can. We've got a Shed rehearsal later this week, and Danny made the mistake of pulling our PA gear out of the trailer a full week before we needed to use it. I just couldn't resist fixing some things that have been nagging at me for years. I've never had a full week to mess around with the entire system before!

So I first spent some time in this most unglorioius of things: the amp rack for our PA system. There have been some intermittent buzz issues in the system for years, and I just had to track those down and eliminate them. It's pretty darn quiet now after a solid day of re-arranging power amps and re-routing all the AC, signal and speaker wires away from each other. And it looks a lot spiffier now, to boot! Yeah!!!

I also wanted to test out my new bass rig along with the PA system. As I shed my beloved Alembic/Crest setup, here's what I've moved to. I go into the PA direct out of the REDDI.

Basses -> REDDI -> Genz-Benz Streamliner 900 -> Bergantino NV-610

Once I had the PA quieted down and my new bass rig pumping, I decided to make use of my mixing experience to REALLY work on the mix for our live sound. I'm ashamed to report that we've never as much as panned the first thing. Everything was running right up the middle, and we only applied the slightest bit of EQ to help things cut through better. We never got more sophisticated than turning up the guitar if the mix needed more guitar (never mind that you can't hear the vocals now!). Doh!!!

We've got a 24-channel stereo PA system that sports a Yamaha 01V96-VCM mixer that is loaded with internal effects. I KNOW our system can deliver CD quality audio at very high volume levels, it has just never been setup to do that properly. So I started by using Sonar and my 8-channel USB interface (M-Audio Fast-Track Ultra 8R) to pump 8 channels of drums into the 8 channels on the Yamaha mixer that we dedicate to the drums (kick, snare top, snare bottom, hats, rack tom, floor tom, overhead L, overhead R). The drum sounds coming out of Sonar are basically real drums that somebody else mic'd, recorded and packaged as high quality samples. So this was the really next best thing to actually having the kit here and mic'ing it all. I was able to really dial in the EQ, compression, panning and noise gating on all 8 of those channels without even having a kit (or the loud noise of a kit) here. And then I got to spend all the time I wanted to make the bass EQ and the kick drum EQ play well together so that both instruments can be heard really clearly now. I want the kick to turn people's guts into jelly and I want the bass to rattle the walls, but I still want to hear both instruments as two separate things. Mission accomplished!

Turns out that was time well spent, too. George Penn dropped his kit off here earlier today, and within 5 minutes of me and Danny running all the mics and cords we had a live drum sound coming out of the PA that is light years beyond anything we've achieved before. We're stoked!

It's a royal pain in the butt to cart all this crap around for the lousy little gigs we do these days... but man, it is sooooo much fun for a gear slut like me.

Here's George's kit with a real quick mic placement. We'll clean that up some for the actual show on Saturday.

There's still a 24-track hard disk recorder in the PA, too, so I should have some fresh Electric Woodshed mixes to share sometime next week. Yee-haw!!

agedhorse · #2 02-28-2012, 09:35 PM

Greg - don't run your power amps off of the power conditioner. This can cause other problems depending on your AC power's source impedance. Can also CAUSE noise problems. Most power amp manufacturers recommend against it.

nostatic · #3 02-28-2012, 11:30 PM

fwiw I really like a Gly Johns mic setup for the kit - ideally with large diaphragm condensers overhead and side. You can get by with 3 mics (overhead, side, kick), and can add a 4th on the snare if need be.

RocketMusic · #4 02-29-2012, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Greg - don't run your power amps off of the power conditioner. This can cause other problems depending on your AC power's source impedance. Can also CAUSE noise problems. Most power amp manufacturers recommend against it.

Seriously? That's too funny. I just added the power conditioner yesterday 'cause I love the power up/down sequencing. The low power analog stuff (crossover) comes on a few seconds before the power amps, and then the reverse happens when you turn it off...

I'll have to check into that. I certainly don't want to be doing anything stupid... thanks for the advice!

Mr. Pickles · #5 02-29-2012, 07:58 AM

Cool. I'd love to reqire my PA, but it's 30 miles away and I only see it on Friday nights.

LilRay · #6 02-29-2012, 08:02 AM

So I'm guessing there'll be choice clips from this Saturday's show? Seeing as you've put all that work in.

God Bless, Ray

RocketMusic · #7 02-29-2012, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nostatic

fwiw I really like a Gly Johns mic setup for the kit - ideally with large diaphragm condensers overhead and side. You can get by with 3 mics (overhead, side, kick), and can add a 4th on the snare if need be.

Man, I hate overhead mics. I like nice, tight kick, snare and toms, and I have a devil of a time gating the overheads to get that sound. Not to mention, you don't really want to gate cymbals real short, you need to let them breathe a lot more than drums. So I just use the overheads to capture the cymbals (crash, ride, china). I apply a low shelf cut on the overheads to remove a lot of the toms & kick. We are using condensers on everything, but our current overheads are tiny little things.

We also don't have any on-stage isolation/screening, so the overheads pick up EVERYTHING (guitars, keys, bass, etc.). The low shelf also helps clear that stuff out to some degree.

I have read where a lot of guys use overheads as the main part of the drum sound and then fill in with direct mics on specific pieces. I don't get it, but I'm always up for experimenting and learning. I suspect an approach like that would work best in a small ensemble where the ringing of the drums would add to the ambience (as opposed to just cluttering up the mix in a larger band like the Woodshed). And it also probably only applies in a studio setting where the drums are truly isolated? Just a guess...

JASON221 · #8 02-29-2012, 08:34 AM

Really?????

RocketMusic · #9 02-29-2012, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASON221

Really?????

Really about what? Sorry, I'm confused by your post...

agedhorse · #10 02-29-2012, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketMusic

Seriously? That's too funny. I just added the power conditioner yesterday 'cause I love the power up/down sequencing. The low power analog stuff (crossover) comes on a few seconds before the power amps, and then the reverse happens when you turn it off...

I'll have to check into that. I certainly don't want to be doing anything stupid... thanks for the advice!

If the unit you have is intended to cycle amps on and off, it may have outlets that are specifically for this purpose (I can't tell which one you have). the difference is that there mayl be no shunt filters to cause ground contamination, or they have accounted for this in the design but it's worth double-checking.

Regular power conditioners and ESPECIALLY those with voltage regulation are a bad idea for power amps. While it may seem like a good idea on the surface, there are some serious (and potentially damaging) technical issues that can arise. I remember a discussion/thread about this that Bob Lee, Jerold Tiers and I were involved with a year or two back, and we all had similar experiences.

RocketMusic · #11 02-29-2012, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agedhorse

If the unit you have is intended to cycle amps on and off, it may have outlets that are specifically for this purpose (I can't tell which one you have). the difference is that there mayl be no shunt filters to cause ground contamination, or they have accounted for this in the design but it's worth double-checking.

Regular power conditioners and ESPECIALLY those with voltage regulation are a bad idea for power amps. While it may seem like a good idea on the surface, there are some serious (and potentially damaging) technical issues that can arise. I remember a discussion/thread about this that Bob Lee, Jerold Tiers and I were involved with a year or two back, and we all had similar experiences.

It's the Monster PRO-3500. It's got separate sections for digital things, low power analog things and high power analog things (specifically power amps). I haven't noticed any ill effect, and I've had the system cranked REALLY loudly, louder than we'll ever use it. I don't think it regulates the voltage, it just filters it several different ways depending on those three applications.

I've found threads on several different forums talking about issues with power amps and power regulating conditioners. That was all news to me, so thanks again for pointing that out.

agedhorse · #12 02-29-2012, 12:00 PM

Your unit may then be ok. I just wanted to point this out as it's a question that we receive a lot from customers.

nostatic · #13 02-29-2012, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketMusic

I have read where a lot of guys use overheads as the main part of the drum sound and then fill in with direct mics on specific pieces. I don't get it, but I'm always up for experimenting and learning. I suspect an approach like that would work best in a small ensemble where the ringing of the drums would add to the ambience (as opposed to just cluttering up the mix in a larger band like the Woodshed). And it also probably only applies in a studio setting where the drums are truly isolated? Just a guess...

I have used it in my home studio with quartet (with bass and keys live in the room, not direct). I don't like close mic'd drums but that's just a personal bias. This is more on the jazz tip though, so I think it fits better. If it is loud rock, then it may be an issue. I was amazed though at how much better the GJ setup sounded with my kit in my room vs close mic'd.

LightGroove · #14 02-29-2012, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketMusic

Man, I hate overhead mics. I like nice, tight kick, snare and toms, and I have a devil of a time gating the overheads to get that sound. Not to mention, you don't really want to gate cymbals real short, you need to let them breathe a lot more than drums. So I just use the overheads to capture the cymbals (crash, ride, china). I apply a low shelf cut on the overheads to remove a lot of the toms & kick. We are using condensers on everything, but our current overheads are tiny little things.

We also don't have any on-stage isolation/screening, so the overheads pick up EVERYTHING (guitars, keys, bass, etc.). The low shelf also helps clear that stuff out to some degree.

I have read where a lot of guys use overheads as the main part of the drum sound and then fill in with direct mics on specific pieces. I don't get it, but I'm always up for experimenting and learning. I suspect an approach like that would work best in a small ensemble where the ringing of the drums would add to the ambience (as opposed to just cluttering up the mix in a larger band like the Woodshed). And it also probably only applies in a studio setting where the drums are truly isolated? Just a guess...

I like to use 2 large diaphram mics for overheads and a kick mic. Occasionally Ill mic the snare but for most venues the overheads catch it. I understand your recording but cant you do a lot of eqing and tweaking during post processing. I realize it may be more time consuming but may save the stress of pre and during show issues. I dont think your going to get true isolation regardless of the approach

Oh and I use a Presonus studio live and it works really good. All the recording is pre eq and effects by choice and I add whatever later.

Mr. Pickles · #15 03-01-2012, 06:51 AM

Greg - do you really NEED overheads in the small venues that you guys are playing? Seems like using condensers on everything in a live setting is making lots of unecessary work (with gating, eq, etc.). I've found that a little ambience, from, say a 57 under the ride, can fatten up a mix nicely. Also, from what I've read, I've gathered you're runnig stereo. That can be a waste of resources for (arguably, of course) minimal effect. I'm sure you know most of this, so I'm not trying to sound snarky or anything.

RocketMusic · #16 03-01-2012, 08:21 AM

Our setup is complete overkill, and I LOVE it!

We honestly don't need to mic anything but the kick as far as the live setting goes. But with our 24-track live recording capability, I try to capture everything as cleanly as I can so that I can make hay with it after the show. I just use the overheads to capture the cymbals up top. Between gating, EQ and compression, I can get really great isolation on all of the drum mics. You won't hear anything bleeding through those mics by the time I'm done with them. But the overheads are what they are. You can't really EQ much out of them 'cause the full spectrum is coming through (everything from kick to snare to the highest splash cymbal), plus a lot of stage crosstalk from guitars, bass, keys, etc. So on the overheads, I just cut the lows to remove as much of the drum sounds as I can without making the cymbals up top sound too thin.

RocketMusic · #17 03-02-2012, 12:10 AM

Here's why we go to all the bother to mic everything to within an inch of it's life. I dug up the raw tracks from some show we did at Champs in Blacksburg last year. After an hour of setting up some gates, EQ & compression in Sonar (all settings which mimic pretty much exactly what I've setup in our digital mixer for the live sound), I was able to relatively quickly get a pretty nice mix like this:

"Early In The Morning" (The Electric Woodshed @ Champs in Blacksburg sometime in 2011)

I only have to setup the mixer once to do this stuff. Thereafter, I can just recall the settings. When we get to a venue I might have to tweak the main & monitor EQ's for the room, but then we're off to the races. Our PA mixes should sound every bit as good as this with very little effort. Of course, that assumes we're good boys on stage with our personal rig volumes...

Anyway, that was me playing King Koa, and it sounds like it still had the Joe Barden pickups in it whenever this show took place. That's all neck pickup.

Oh, and sorry for the botched ending. I screwed the pooch on that one.

Jeff Moote · #18 03-02-2012, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketMusic

Anyway, that was me playing King Koa, and it sounds like it still had the Joe Barden pickups in it whenever this show took place. That's all neck pickup.

That TONE is just killer. Fantastic single coil-ish crunch, and sits perfectly in the mix. I'm surprised and a little impressed that it is all neck pickup!

wilberthenry · #19 03-02-2012, 02:41 PM

You guys are one of my favorite live bands in the NRV (along with the Alliens). I can't believe you guys have a sweet PA considering how infrequently you guys play out these days. I'm looking forward to hearing the improvements.

RocketMusic · #20 03-02-2012, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilberthenry

You guys are one of my favorite live bands in the NRV (along with the Alliens). I can't believe you guys have a sweet PA considering how infrequently you guys play out these days. I'm looking forward to hearing the improvements.

Hey, thanks! I really appreciate that!

Yeah, it's criminal that we don't use the system more. We built the system slowly over the past 15-20 years. It's just when we made the move to a digital mixing board a few years ago that we decided to REALLY take it to the next level with the multi-track recording capability.

We started our journey of live recording by just taking the L&R main outs and recording those with a small handheld digital recorder. That was OK, but we were constantly being frustrated by the missing parts. If a guitar player was too loud on stage, he'd get taken out of the mix and wouldn't end up in the recording. So something was always louder of softer than it needed to be, and no amount of EQ'ing would fix it. That basically makes the recordings worthless in my mind. They might qualify for playing to Mom 'cause she thinks everything I do is awesome... but the rest of the world would think it sounds like a$$.

So we took a leap and spent a few grand to get the 24-track recording capability. I'm sure we rationalized it with thoughts like "bands will be banging down our door to have us run sound, record & mix them". But that was just helping us warm up the credit card; we don't have the time or the energy to be running sound for other people.

It might come in handy for recording clinics or recitals here at the store. That'll help make it a tax write-off, at least!