Berklee and other music colleges

[plasson]

Hi there Justin.

I'd have a short and concise question for you:

What do you think about colleges like Berklee and others?
I mean both regarding the instruction and the "networking".
What kind of consideration do you have of them?
Do you think them to be useful in order to pursue a professional career?

An opinion from a Pro like you would be SO appreciated.

One more thing: how is your name pronounced?

Thanks for your time!

[jmjbassplayer]

You know, if I could do it all over again, I would have studied more formally. Harmonic knowledge and reading would be the things I would say I need the most improvement in. So in some respects, I would have liked to have received formalized music training. That said, if I had done that when I was younger, would I have ended up where I am now? Not exactly sure.

In other words, no: MY particular professional career didn't depend on it. My career depended on spending my late teens/early 20's playing clubs, jamming, touring in a van, and being out in the LA music scene. And in some ways, the circles I have been in have always had a slightly pretentious attitude about music education being a bit of a taboo. Which I don't necessarily agree with personally; sometimes I find myself quite envious of the knowledge that other people possess. But I have a good career, and for that I'm grateful, regardless of my education.

Best,
JMJ

[plasson]

I see.
I guess growing up in an environment like LA certainly helps introducing yourself into certain circles.
But do you believe schools like Berklee massively help people intriducing themselves into certain circles and actually give the basis for to build a strong musical career (both as a studio or as a touring musician)?

[jmjbassplayer]

"...massively help people"? I'm not sure. You're framing the question as if you're trying to talk me into it. Or perhaps you're being devil's advocate.

Again, in the circles I'm in, it's actually regarded as a black mark. So in the alternative rock world, for instance, it's not what you necessarily throw out as your first point of introduction, to say the least. The exact opposite may be true for the players that tour with Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, R&B artists, etc. And I don't say that out of spite, I'm simply being observational.

Let me put it this way: there's a big difference in sound, approach, aesthetic, visuals between me playing something raw and rocking and someone with a degree from Berklee....GENERALLY speaking. I came from playing in punk and alternative rock bands, jamming in garages, listening to countless records, going to countless shows, being in a van. It's just simply not stuff one could ever hope to learn, only to experience.

So, that was my school. Relative to what I do. So, it all depends on the type of music we're talking about here.

Pop/Rock, pop, R&B, Gospel, Jazz, etc. In those areas, I'd say an education would be to your benefit. Composing, etc. Very helpful.

I'd love to hear other thoughts on this.

Best,
JMJ

[JimmyM]

I never went to a college but I did learn a lot about music in high school and had a couple really good teachers later on in life who got me up to speed, so I'm all for learning as much as you can about music. And there are quite a few musicians who came out of schools like Berklee and got hooked up with huge careers, partially because of it.

But for every Berklee student who ends up on tour with a huge act and making good money, there are a thousand others who will be playing jazz casuals for $75 a night and teaching in the day. Nothing at all wrong with that. But I would never go to a school like Berklee thinking it's going to make you rich and famous. Some have done it so it's not impossible, but it's highly unlikely. Then again, it's highly unlikely no matter who you are or where you come from.

[undeadbass]

I've seen it on both sides of the coin.

I didn't go to music school (although I was accepted, I didn't have the means, then lost the will for school altogether), but have studied music my entire life. A lot of my friends from high school did go to music school (Berklee, NYU, Eastman, etc.).

There are a couple people that got an "in" from school, but got their gigs with their immense talent as well - my old guitarist now plays with Richard Bona, and the bassist I idolized in high school is now with the New World Symphony in Miami.

There are others with equal talent that are at the same level in their careers as I am - sideman jobs, wedding/corporate bands, some session work, and their own bands.

So I guess I'm just reiterating Jimmy's post.

[tomhanzo]

dude i agree with Justin. It all depends what you want in terms of music.

I'm 20 and i'm not a great bassist by any means. I like learning from other people and just getting it on my own. It gives you a better understanding i think. Some one can tell you not to touch something cause its hot, but if you touch it you learn a lot more from it.

Even if you go and get the trainning at some big school, you arent a for sure win. You may not even have much of an advantage from it.

Like i said im not a great musician or anything, but music is like anything else. Your ability to do it is only so much of the battle to become a musician.

[iceberg]

From my experience (ex-music student/musician in LA), music school provides more of a hindrance than a help. Music school grads have a bit of a rep (in LA, at least) for being stiff and unnecessarily chopsy. In an industry that runs on hipness and simple pop grooves, this is clearly a disadvantage.

School seems to become a pissing contest of who can play the best Jaco lick at 400 bpm, then those "winners" come here and feel out of place with no great groove lines and baggy jeans. It's just a very different atmosphere which generally requires a shift in mindset, gear, look, etc.

In my opinion (as is the rest of this), the best "music schools" are

a.) Records than inspire you
-Everyone needs new inspiration to keeping moving forward.
-Provides examples of other established recording artists.
-Trains your ears!!!
-Trains your "taste"!!!

b.) Gospel churches (esp. R&B, jazz, hip hop)
-Great atmosphere of talented players.
-Requires improvisation/feel
-Opportunities to read charts/write lines (exactly what you do in the studio)
-Forced to FEEL the music, not just play through it.

c.) Cramped dirty van on the road (esp. rock)
-Performance experience (much easier to "become the music" and establish your style without people that know you in the audience)
-The groove/lock you have after weeks/months on the road cannot be acheived at rehearsal.
-Great stories!!!
-Street cred

d.) Google theory
-Google "key", "diatonic music", "triad", "chords" anything to fill in the blanks you don't understand.
-Use theory to communicate with people, not to build lines. Your soul creates the lines!

I avoid replying in the pro forums but felt this was pretty in line with Justin's position and provides another perspective. Hope it helps.

[tomhanzo]

Originally Posted by iceberg

From my experience (ex-music student/musician in LA), music school provides more of a hindrance than a help. Music school grads have a bit of a rep (in LA, at least) for being stiff and unnecessarily chopsy. In an industry that runs on hipness and simple pop grooves, this is clearly a disadvantage.

School seems to become a pissing contest of who can play the best Jaco lick at 400 bpm, then those "winners" come here and feel out of place with no great groove lines and baggy jeans. It's just a very different atmosphere which generally requires a shift in mindset, gear, look, etc.

In my opinion (as is the rest of this), the best "music schools" are

a.) Records than inspire you
-Everyone needs new inspiration to keeping moving forward.
-Provides examples of other established recording artists.
-Trains your ears!!!
-Trains your "taste"!!!

b.) Gospel churches (esp. R&B, jazz, hip hop)
-Great atmosphere of talented players.
-Requires improvisation/feel
-Opportunities to read charts/write lines (exactly what you do in the studio)
-Forced to FEEL the music, not just play through it.

c.) Cramped dirty van on the road (esp. rock)
-Performance experience (much easier to "become the music" and establish your style without people that know you in the audience)
-The groove/lock you have after weeks/months on the road cannot be acheived at rehearsal.
-Great stories!!!
-Street cred

d.) Google theory
-Google "key", "diatonic music", "triad", "chords" anything to fill in the blanks you don't understand.
-Use theory to communicate with people, not to build lines. Your soul creates the lines!

I avoid replying in the pro forums but felt this was pretty in line with Justin's position and provides another perspective. Hope it helps.

amazing answer. i really like the part about people you know in the crowd. its true. you cant really get a feeling for what your music is till you see strangers actions to it.

[jmjbassplayer]

BRILLIANT.

[funkybass4ever]

I see no problem learning as much as one can, formal or informally. I understand the informal learning- this is what my music education is based on. I have known many college trained musicians and although they have a great background in music it doesn;t always show in their musicianship. Raw Talent can get you far and knowing the right people can help too.
I always felt that the real smart ones know how to learn and can teach themselves what they need to know. It may not be learned as fast as the music college crowd or as thourough.

I am sure that networking with college music students and faculty can get you in a few doors but there is nothing like experience as the real form of learning. School of hard knocks for me

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by jmjbassplayer

BRILLIANT.

And at the same time a little sad, don't you think?

It's kind of a shame that there are pockets of musicians out there who poke fun at other people for furthering their formal musical education at a college. I have always believed that if you had the raw ability to move people with your music, no amount of education would ruin that, and it would only enhance it. If I went to Berklee, there's no doubt that I would come out of the experience with my rock and roll van credibility intact because it's a part of me and has been since I was 3 and heard the Beatles for the first time, and shame on anyone for thinking otherwise.

OTOH, there are a lot of people with zero raw ability to move people with their music, and they go to colleges thinking that they're going to come out with that ability just because they can play modes over changes when they graduate. They ruin it for everyone Being able to play modes over changes is a useful skill in jazz circles, but if you can't play an ACDC 8-to-the-bar riff in time, then IMHO you've totally missed the point.

So it's not that the folks in Justin's circle aren't justified. I just don't think it's that cut and dried where education = wanker.

But the one thing that we can all agree on is that musicians who make it to the big time are by a great margin the exception and not the rule no matter if you went to Berklee or not.

[tomhanzo]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

And at the same time a little sad, don't you think?

It's kind of a shame that there are pockets of musicians out there who poke fun at other people for furthering their formal musical education at a college. I have always believed that if you had the raw ability to move people with your music, no amount of education would ruin that, and it would only enhance it. If I went to Berklee, there's no doubt that I would come out of the experience with my rock and roll van credibility intact because it's a part of me and has been since I was 3 and heard the Beatles for the first time, and shame on anyone for thinking otherwise.

OTOH, there are a lot of people with zero raw ability to move people with their music, and they go to colleges thinking that they're going to come out with that ability just because they can play modes over changes when they graduate. They ruin it for everyone Being able to play modes over changes is a useful skill in jazz circles, but if you can't play an ACDC 8-to-the-bar riff in time, then IMHO you've totally missed the point.

So it's not that the folks in Justin's circle aren't justified. I just don't think it's that cut and dried where education = wanker.

But the one thing that we can all agree on is that musicians who make it to the big time are by a great margin the exception and not the rule no matter if you went to Berklee or not.

i agree with all of that as well. Justin you have some smart mofos on here. You should be proud.

[jmjbassplayer]

Very smart indeed, people. A cool discussion.

Education DOES NOT equal wanker. I will never allow that to stand as some sort of sad generality. You've all heard me say (repeatedly, I might add) that I wish I had more skills in the areas of reading and harmonic knowledge. So there you go. But would I be where I am now if I went to Berklee (or the like) just after high school rather than "getting in the van"? I will submit to you that I probably would not be. Do I regret not knowing a bit more? Sure.

We're all kind of saying shades of the same thing.

Good s&$t.

JMJ

[JimmyM]

Right on. Who knows how the moon and stars are going to align for anyone until it happens? If I were you, I'd just take it and not question it even one little bit

Your words about education not equalling wanking are much appreciated BTW. Always bummed me out when the cool alternative bands in town thought I was too educated and uncool for them. Then again, it could have been my bad taste in clothes

[bass12]

I'll tell you what circle Berklee can introduce you to: debt! But seriously, different "scenes" have different requirements and different tendencies. Musical education is great and I don't think you should turn your back on music schools just because some alt rockers might reject you. Justin is right, however, in suggesting that having a degree or certificate from a music school will not necessarily gain you acceptance into a given group or music community. Music is not simply one type of career - there are many fields in which to work and not all of those fields have the same requirements. Having a degree from Berklee implies to most that you will have the qualifications do do certain things (read music, apply music theory, etc.). These qualifications are not, however, necessary for all musical situations. Some musical settings don't require that you be able to read music, but they do require that you have great ears. A lot of bands and producers care more about how easy you are to work with on a personal level than whether or not you know when to employ a phrygian scale. If you're working in Nashville, those fusion chops you acquired at Berklee aren't going to be worth a damn - what's going to matter is whether or not you can hang and read a numbers chart. What it comes down to is this: what kind of music do you want to be playing and who do you want to play with? If the answer is "fusion with guys who know how to expand the harmonic envelope" then, buy all means, go to Berklee and enjoy the experience. If, on the other hand, the answer is "guys who just want to kick it and groove their asses off", well - just think about how many records you could buy with all of that tuition money...

[plasson]

great discussion guys!
I'm loving reading your posts.
Just for the record:

my doubts concerning Berklee are all due to the same motivations you are giving.
I'm afraid of the "black mark". I'm afraid that, after all that study and money spent (although I've recieved a scholarship), I will not manage to join certain environments.

still, I have to say that sentences like

If, on the other hand, the answer is "guys who just want to kick it and groove their asses off", well - just think about how many records you could buy with all of that tuition money...

leave me very disappointed.
I find this snob attitude toward educated musicians to be ridicule.
an educated musician might make asses move just like anyone else.
it's up to YOU, it's about the feeling you put into every single note in order to make it different from the former, it's about being sincere with the crowd and with yourself.

oh, and still for the record: I am not an educated musician.
I can't even consider myself a musician.
moving to Berklee would mean for me joining a world of musicians, an environment I totally ignore (here in Italy there's no such thing).
still, if i had to decide right now, I wouldn't move there.

an by the way: my post is aboslutely NON critical.
I do appreciate your opinions and points of view.
so please, guys, keep on posting!

[bass12]

Originally Posted by plasson

great discussion guys!
I'm loving reading your posts.
Just for the record:

my doubts concerning Berklee are all due to the same motivations you are giving.
I'm afraid of the "black mark". I'm afraid that, after all that study and money spent (although I've recieved a scholarship), I will not manage to join certain environments.

still, I have to say that sentences like

leave me very disappointed.
I find this snob attitude toward educated musicians to be ridicule.
an educated musician might make asses move just like anyone else.
it's up to YOU, it's about the feeling you put into every single note in order to make it different from the former, it's about being sincere with the crowd and with yourself.

oh, and still for the record: I am not an educated musician.
I can't even consider myself a musician.
moving to Berklee would mean for me joining a world of musicians, an environment I totally ignore (here in Italy there's no such thing).
still, if i had to decide right now, I wouldn't move there.

an by the way: my post is aboslutely NON critical.
I do appreciate your opinions and points of view.
so please, guys, keep on posting!

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting that academically trained musicians can't move butts. What I'm saying is that if, for example, Soul is the kind of music you want to play you'll probably get more educational value from listening to a lot of records than from attending a school like Berklee. The best option, in my opinion, would be to do both. I have always been amazed by how little many "educated" musicians (i.e., college graduates) have actually listened to music! I've been on stage with plenty of guys who know their theory inside out but haven't spent enough time listening to records. Again, it depends on what you want to be doing - and what kind of education you want. In the end, ANY career in music is difficult and the more tools you have at your disposal the better. If you are avoiding Berklee because of a fear of some "black mark", well, I think that's probably unwise (especially if you have a scholarship). And hey - if, after all is said and done, you are auditioning for a band that seems to be "anti-academia", just lie and tell 'em you always hated school...

[stingray5dude]

this is a great thread and it post a great question, music school or not????

I can speak from my personal exp. and say i faced this same choice 3 years ago. The way i approaced it was like this, i looked at the amount of time, and the amount of money, and the possible learning exp. I decided that i could better myself by moving to one of the biggest cities in my country, and using some of the money i would have spent on university in getting a flat and setting myself up.
Than i replied to just about every ad for band seeking a bass player that i thought would help, and never said no to a session. Am i bettter for it???
I think so

[plasson]

Originally Posted by stingray5dude

this is a great thread and it post a great question, music school or not????

I can speak from my personal exp. and say i faced this same choice 3 years ago. The way i approaced it was like this, i looked at the amount of time, and the amount of money, and the possible learning exp. I decided that i could better myself by moving to one of the biggest cities in my country, and using some of the money i would have spent on university in getting a flat and setting myself up.
Than i replied to just about every ad for band seeking a bass player that i thought would help, and never said no to a session. Am i bettter for it???
I think so

I've also considered that option, but the problem is that I come from another country and I have no idea about how the world is there, nor a point to start from.
the college just sounded like the safest way...