Image as a hired gun

Taylor Livingston · #1 10-20-2008, 12:19 PM

It strikes me that while this forum has covered the part of your job that calls for you to put yourself - but maybe not to much of yourself - into people's records. I'm interested in something else, though, which is how image comes into play. We of course can't be naïve about the fact that image is a big deal for music acts, and I don't really see any problem with that.

My question is this: do bands/artists with whom you'll be seen in concert ask you specifically to dress a certain way to fit better with the image they've cultivated? I found a photo that shows you in Beck versus you in Nails:

Did Trent discuss with you a way of dressing and acting in concert that he would prefer? Or do you make these decisions on your own (kind of like, "I'm going to a wedding, I guess I have to wear a suit")? I apologize if this is like an uncouth thing to be asking. Let me know if so, I can delete this. I reckon you don't care, but I don't want to be overstepping the bounds of this forum or making you wish you had never done this.

JimmyM · #2 10-20-2008, 01:01 PM

Sorry, but I don't see the difference

Taylor Livingston · #3 10-20-2008, 01:40 PM

Uhh... did you notice his watch is a different color? Keep up, Jimmy.

tomhanzo · #4 10-20-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conical johnson

Uhh... did you notice his watch is a different color? Keep up, Jimmy.

o yeah your right. good eye

JimmyM · #5 10-20-2008, 04:34 PM

Well, I can't speak for Justin, but the general rule with bands is "When in Rome..."

Taylor Livingston · #6 10-20-2008, 05:12 PM

Sure, and I'm not snarking on him about that. I'm just kind of curious about whether this is discussed by the bandleader/manager/whatever in the same way that musical concerns would be, or if it just happens as a result of the individual's personal feelings about looking out of place, or just the fun of playing dress-up in a new character. I imagine that when someone is brought into a group with an established back catalog of music, the bandleader discusses with the new guy what he wants him to do musically, whether it be to play it exactly as it is on the record, take some liberties, or make it his own. I'm curious about the image equivalent, and whether a similar conversation takes place.

D.Don · #7 10-20-2008, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Sorry, but I don't see the difference

Come on, the first image is a 2+2 and the other a 4-in a row...

HUGE difference!!

D.Don

JimmyM · #8 10-20-2008, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conical johnson

Sure, and I'm not snarking on him about that. I'm just kind of curious about whether this is discussed by the bandleader/manager/whatever in the same way that musical concerns would be, or if it just happens as a result of the individual's personal feelings about looking out of place, or just the fun of playing dress-up in a new character. I imagine that when someone is brought into a group with an established back catalog of music, the bandleader discusses with the new guy what he wants him to do musically, whether it be to play it exactly as it is on the record, take some liberties, or make it his own. I'm curious about the image equivalent, and whether a similar conversation takes place.

That all is a case by case basis, but FWIW, I can tell you it did happen in Sha Na Na. Bowzer just told me this story Saturday. After their guitarist Vinnie Taylor died of an OD, they hired Elliott Randall, a studio guitarist best known for his solo in Steely Dan's "Reelin' In The Years." They wanted him to get a haircut and shave his beard and he refused, and they wanted him to play more of a 50's style instead of his usual 70's studio lead player style, and he refused. So he didn't last long.

jmjbassplayer · #9 10-21-2008, 12:05 AM

This is a VERY valid question.

I'm going to be completely frank and honest here, as always:

No one ever has told me how to dress, behave, perform, or do my thing. It's always under my control, yet influenced by the situation. NIN has a stylist who has recommended a few pieces of clothing way later on, but she's very cool and likes me to do what I do. As does Trent. He likes my style, and the way that I've adapted it to NIN...he trusts that I'm not going to bust out in my pink Izod sweater vest and Elton John shades. I do that on the day off. ;-)

I adapt to a scenario based on aesthetic, and have no problem changing it up. It feels natural to me to do so, since I don't feel tied to a certain uniform. For me, it's just like playing bass: I thrive on the schizophrenia.

I will be damned to a cold and banal existence the day that I submit to playing in one type of band or in one very specific style. That's when I hang up my hat...or figure out how to quickly reinvent myself!

JMJ

Eilif · #10 10-31-2008, 09:37 AM

I wanted to put a followup to this one. I hate the connotations of the word "image", but how much would you say being visually memorable has helped you in your career?

I have, and appreciate others who have, their own style, and I always thought that making a visual statement (as long as you're not trying to hard) was good practice. My experience is fairly limited, but I have to think that when folks see Janesville, they remember the cowboy bassist with the mohawk, and it seems that can only help the band, and me.

Clearly the gigs and corporate sponsorships you get are essentially based on your knowledge and abilities, but it can't hurt that you make a visual statement (big hair, mod-vintage clothes, etc.) as well.

Taylor Livingston · #11 10-31-2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

That all is a case by case basis, but FWIW, I can tell you it did happen in Sha Na Na. Bowzer just told me this story Saturday. After their guitarist Vinnie Taylor died of an OD, they hired Elliott Randall, a studio guitarist best known for his solo in Steely Dan's "Reelin' In The Years." They wanted him to get a haircut and shave his beard and he refused, and they wanted him to play more of a 50's style instead of his usual 70's studio lead player style, and he refused. So he didn't last long.

Ok, so I had to look up who these people were on Wikipedia. This seems really stupid to me, since Sha Na Na appears to have been a group that was all about recreating the image of 50s rock. Somebody going into a band like that and refusing to play 50s music is just idiotic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eilif

I wanted to put a followup to this one. I hate the connotations of the word "image", but how much would you say being visually memorable has helped you in your career?

I have, and appreciate others who have, their own style, and I always thought that making a visual statement (as long as you're not trying to hard) was good practice. My experience is fairly limited, but I have to think that when folks see Janesville, they remember the cowboy bassist with the mohawk, and it seems that can only help the band, and me.

Clearly the gigs and corporate sponsorships you get are essentially based on your knowledge and abilities, but it can't hurt that you make a visual statement (big hair, mod-vintage clothes, etc.) as well.

I won't presume to know the kind of crowds you're playing, but it seems to me that country music fans are a tough crowd, and maybe more than others, not the type to embrace an image that seems alien to them (even in 2008, when I see 5-year-old kids with mohawks pretty regularly). It seems that this kind of counter-culture image could either be a strength or a liability, depending on the people you're trying to win over.

In JMJ's case, I wouldn't be too surprised if he has gotten jobs that plainer, less memorable people have not. I think in a world where there are many players who have musical skills in excess of what's necessary (often the case for bass players I would guess, since most producers/artists probably want bassists to play far less spectacularly than they are capable of), a guy you remember is going to get the call more than a guy you can't remember, even when they are equally skilled players.

Another aspect of "image" for a hired gun is probably how your demeanor is perceived. I bet guys who have an image as being easy to work with get the call more often than someone who is irritable and super-fussy.

FernandoDANTE · #12 10-31-2008, 07:49 PM

All I know is: if you ain't a skinny girl, you don't get to play bass for Billy Corgan.

Taylor Livingston · #13 10-31-2008, 08:29 PM

Paz is my favorite.

Your post reminds me of something: female musicians must surely face this image thing more than guys. On one hand, some female musicians might be chosen for their looks when their skills are not really on par with a less attractive competitor, but on the other hand, they're probably more likely than men to be seen as talentless eye candy without getting a chance to be heard.

JimmyM · #14 10-31-2008, 09:39 PM

All of a sudden, this thread interests me...I can't put my finger on why it does, though...

All I can say is my image has cost me gigs...especially when my hair started falling out. Image counts for live work. In the studio, maybe not so much. But even in the studio, it pays to at least be memorable. A buddy of mine used to be mentored by the late, great studio guitarist Tommy Tedesco, and my buddy would go into a session and be real quiet and not make a scene and slip out, and Tommy told him that he needed to "break a few glasses," meaning, talk to people and let them know just who the F you are. And Tommy was no beauty, but he worked constantly.

FernandoDANTE · #15 10-31-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conical johnson

Paz is my favorite.

Oh yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMQEZx9PqSo

Yes indeed. Those short-shorts are so...short.

Plus, she's from South America!

stoneboy26 · #16 10-31-2008, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FernandoDANTE

Oh yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMQEZx9PqSo

Yes indeed. Those short-shorts are so...short.

Plus, she's from South America!

and apparently she can play the bass...i was too busy looking at her to notice!

The Lurker · #17 10-31-2008, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conical johnson

Paz is my favorite.

Your post reminds me of something: female musicians must surely face this image thing more than guys. On one hand, some female musicians might be chosen for their looks when their skills are not really on par with a less attractive competitor, but on the other hand, they're probably more likely than men to be seen as talentless eye candy without getting a chance to be heard.

Yeah, Paz is quite the enchanter...

Looks? Yeah, I can see how that could matter for women; lots of people listen with their eyes, and most males are basically hardwired to respond favorably to attractive females. That doesn't mean that someone like D'arcy should be assumed to be a no-talent hack, since Corgan doesn't really have a record of hiring flakes, but if it came down to a toss-up between D'arcy or Paz and some equally-talented befanged and drooling troll with halitosis and acne..... well.... I think Corgan's organ would do some of the talking.

On a personal note.... I was once turned down for a spot in a reggae band a few years ago because, as the singer (who was West Indian himself) said, "You're white, and nobody would take a reggae band seriously if the one white guy in it is the bass player."

Taylor Livingston · #18 11-01-2008, 12:37 AM

Hmm, that is pretty bunk. Imagine how much madder everyone would be if a polka group refused an awesome accordion player because he was West Indian...

I always thought Corgan recorded all the bass parts in his bands himself, so I have to believe looks were more of a deciding factor in picking those bassists than skills.

FernandoDANTE · #19 11-01-2008, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Lurker

Yeah, Paz is quite the enchanter...

Looks? Yeah, I can see how that could matter for women; lots of people listen with their eyes, and most males are basically hardwired to respond favorably to attractive females. That doesn't mean that someone like D'arcy should be assumed to be a no-talent hack, since Corgan doesn't really have a record of hiring flakes, but if it came down to a toss-up between D'arcy or Paz and some equally-talented befanged and drooling troll with halitosis and acne..... well.... I think Corgan's organ would do some of the talking.

I have no idea what goes on in Trent's mind, but I do think that getting JMJ to play with NIN had something to do with the awesome stage presence our man brings - and that does include his looks.

Remember Aaron North? I bet there were a dozen guitar players just as talented as him auditioning for NIN's guitar spot back in 2005, but the only one who would pull this off:

was Aaron. He got the job.

JimmyM · #20 11-01-2008, 01:15 AM

I'd like to think that Trent isn't so shallow that he picked a guitarist solely on the basis of being able to leap really high. Somewhere in between all the funky hairstyles and leaping about, you have to be able to play the tunes.

And let's not forget about the great Josh Freese on drums. If you saw Josh on the street, you wouldn't think he was a musician at all, really. He looks like he'd be at home at any law firm as much as onstage with NIN. Hell, the guy played with Devo, and as much as I love Devo, they ain't the most glamorous band out there.

So while image does help, and I'm all for it, quite honestly, image alone isn't going to get you a gig in NIN. Even Twiggy can play bass semi-competently