Publishing / Song Writing / Touring / Merch

the blast · #1 03-09-2009, 10:46 AM

Hi Justin,
Happy Monday to you. I'm hoping you can shed some light on a publishing/song writing/merchandising/touring question for me.

I'm getting involved in a situation where a few friends of mine are making a record with a producer. Now it's time to assemble the band, learn all the songs & rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, all the while un-paid. Basically they're getting the benefits of a hired gun without having to pay up front for it, which I've agreed to. At some point money will become involved so I'm wondering what would be considered fair given the circumstances. I know there are no exact rules but I don't even know what to fairly ask for. I just want to make sure that I don't screw myself or ask for something that's out of line. I want things to be fair so there is no animosity down the road. I wouldn't consider myself an in-demand player such as yourself but I sort of am for this particular scenario for a number of reasons. Plus, I like the music & they are good friends of mine. I'm only asking because I'd like the advice of a non-biased party.

I'm really looking forward to your response & all the best,
-john

jaseOZ · #2 03-09-2009, 10:52 AM

so... you're in the band yeah?

the blast · #3 03-09-2009, 12:24 PM

Yes, I'm in the band. I guess my confusion comes from the fact that I didn't write anything & I didn't record on the album. I'm simply playing bass lines that they & the session player wrote.

-john

jmjbassplayer · #4 03-09-2009, 12:47 PM

You need to get an idea of the total overall budget first.

Then you need to see what they're offering you, so that you can counter with something realistic.

JMJ

JimmyM · #5 03-09-2009, 01:48 PM

If you don't mind my 2c (hope you don't want a refund

)...

I do a lot of hired gun work with formerly famous oldies acts. These acts sell t-shirts and CD's and other merch and some write their own songs. Sometimes they make a really good take on merch. I get $0 of that money, nor do I feel I have a right to any of it. Basically, as a hired gun, you're at their mercy as to how much they want to pay you, and you can either take it or leave it.

However, I just show up to the gigs, do a quick rehearsal at soundcheck, and do the show and go home. Since you have been putting in a lot of unpaid work into it, you have a little bit more leverage, but it's still their choice as to what they pay you and whether you should get a cut on merch. I can pretty much guarantee you that you won't get a cut of publishing if you didn't write any songs unless the songwriters are super nice or you've done something to truly warrant it. People just don't give that away for no reason.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get what you can out of it, though. As Justin said, see what they offer you, then try to counter it in a polite but serious manner if the number isn't high enough for you. And if it were me, I'd probably have this conversation now before you put more work into it.

Anyway, that's my take on the situation.

the blast · #6 03-09-2009, 02:22 PM

Thanks guys. I guess that's what I'll have to do... Wait a bit. I guess every situation is different. Thanks for the input.

jmjbassplayer · #7 03-09-2009, 04:58 PM

Don't wait a bit. Handle it now.

Ask them to tell you what they're offering. Be proactive about it, not super casual. This is business, after all. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be friendly, but be direct. Get the idea of what they're looking to pay, and a total overall project budget as well. Look people in the eye, don't give much preamble or try and smooth it over. Just simply ask: "Hey, can we have a conversation about the business stuff? I'd like to know what you guys were hoping to pay me." And take it from there.

JMJ

the blast · #8 03-09-2009, 06:10 PM

Great, I will. I've already said that I can't work for free so I guess this will be my next step. Thanks for the advice.
-john

stoneboy26 · #9 03-09-2009, 09:26 PM

From what I can understand you are going to playing in what would essentially be their "touring" band - even if it's just local shows or whatever. They have the songs, you play the gig.

I would at the least be wanting a fair cut of whatever is left after costs to the band (eg, advertising, sound guy, etc). In other words, what they split between themselves once they have paid everyone else. In fact, given you are also a hired gun, you can work out a fair rate and get they before they split costs between themselves which is what they'd do for a sound or lighting guy. You might end up in front of them at the end of the night if you are smart enough.

Remember you need to cover gas, gear, whatever.

You are providing them a service so you need to make sure you cover your own costs of running your service.

JimmyM · #10 03-09-2009, 10:41 PM

Stoneboy, the only problem with that is that some bands, especially if they are using hired guns, won't tell you what the band gets paid as a whole, and they will put you on a salary. If they do tell you what the band as a whole makes, it's solely at their discretion since they're the ones who have the gig and you don't. Doesn't exactly create a brotherhood between the members, but a lot of bandleaders care less about that than they care about making money.

But I don't begrudge the bandleaders...it's a hell of a lot of work to be a bandleader, way more than anyone else, and at the end of the day, the bandleader is the one who answers to the people paying him/her, represents the band in interviews and business meetings, and takes the biggest fall if things go bad, so there's also that extra added stress. If you find a bandleader who's making good money and wants to pay the band really well (or at least a good share of what he takes in) and make it a brotherhood, hang onto them because they're golden, and fairly rare. OTOH, if a bandleader's making $50 million a year and I'm only making $250,000, you can say that's not a fair split but I'm not going to bitch too much. Fat chance of that happening in my circles

jaseOZ · #11 03-10-2009, 10:13 AM

I'm lucky I guess as my day job pays pretty sweet.

The band I'm in now is the project of a singer who was in a pretty big Aussie band about 9 years ago. At the moment I'm happy to just show up to rehearsals and learn his songs and play the shows. i really love the whole social scene and getting to play loud rock bass at gigs. I got asked to join about 5 months ago because the old bass player was getting apathetic and I'm so cool to hang out with.

All the money earnt from gigging goes into the band fund which as I understand it is going toward recording at the moment.

I figure that if the recordings do any good and we get some radio play and bigger gigs then that will be ace.
If by some miracle we actually end up with some cash in our pockets at the end of the day I'll be stoked.

The singer is adamant that we all get an equal cut regardless of who wrote what. i think he is being overly generous as he does most of the work and I know what it's like to be the guy that organises the gigs/posters etc so I really appreciate his passion.

But yeah, as I said it's all going toward our CD so I don't actually see any cash ...yet...

If I didn't have another source of income then I don't know what I'd do because getting paid to play original music in Australia is not real easy in my experience.

willgroove2 · #12 03-11-2009, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Stoneboy, the only problem with that is that some bands, especially if they are using hired guns, won't tell you what the band gets paid as a whole, and they will put you on a salary. If they do tell you what the band as a whole makes, it's solely at their discretion since they're the ones who have the gig and you don't. Doesn't exactly create a brotherhood between the members, but a lot of bandleaders care less about that than they care about making money.

But I don't begrudge the bandleaders...it's a hell of a lot of work to be a bandleader, way more than anyone else, and at the end of the day, the bandleader is the one who answers to the people paying him/her, represents the band in interviews and business meetings, and takes the biggest fall if things go bad, so there's also that extra added stress. If you find a bandleader who's making good money and wants to pay the band really well (or at least a good share of what he takes in) and make it a brotherhood, hang onto them because they're golden, and fairly rare. OTOH, if a bandleader's making $50 million a year and I'm only making $250,000, you can say that's not a fair split but I'm not going to bitch too much. Fat chance of that happening in my circles

One of the best lessons I learned over the years is don't count other peoples money