Arcos Brasil Carbon Bow?

edfriedland · #1 10-19-2009, 04:16 PM

I've already searched the forum for info on this, so I'm asking the general population - anyone hear of, or have experience with Arcos Brasil carbon fiber bows?

I spoke to a shop about carbon bows, asking about the Finale and Coda bows. I was told they are "crap" and that the Arcos Brasil bows they carry are much better. Naturally, I take this advice with a pound of salt, but I thought I'd ask.

It seems there are quite a few inexpensive carbon bows available, and I suspect many of them are in fact made at the same factory in China... any way besides buying and trying to get a sense of their relative quality?

hdiddy · #2 10-19-2009, 04:24 PM

I can't see how anyone can say that Finale and Coda are crap when there are plenty of folks who have enjoyed CF bows (myself included). Generally as it always goes, you get what you pay for.

Finale has had lots of raves about it being as good as $2K-3K pernambuco bow. Gary Karr had his own signature model CF bow (not sure if it's still being made).

You should take it upon yourself to check out Lemur's mail-order tryout program. There are others shops who do the same. I just went through a bunch of bows this weekend and walked home with a Coda Bow that was much better than many wood bows I tried, and liked it more than a $2K Pernambuco bow for 1/3 the cost. I would think it also depends on your bass, technique, and style.

marvin spangles · #3 10-19-2009, 05:54 PM

I can't understand why anyone would make such a sweeping statement that the Finale Bow is "crap". If in doubt I suggest you try and audition one of these bows. IMHO the finale is excellent value. But don't take anyones word for it . Try one and see. My main bow is a brazil bow by D Muniz ( I think this is from the Arcos range though I'm not sure) I didn't think Arcos did Carbon fibre bows. There are high end carbon bows made by Arcus. veloce sinfonia and concerto. I had the Sinfonia for a week along with 4 other bows and I chose the muniz. The sinfonia was a strange beast. It was very long(too long for a bass imo) though extremely lightweight. It has a lot of endorsements. I just found the sound to be slightly unnatural compared to the wood bow. This is entirely a subjective view. I really think you should try lots of bows to find the bow that you really connect with. The other bow I really liked was the Ary . It was so comfortable to use . Lightweight short and very agile in my hands. The sound was good too but not as good as the MUNIZ. I also have a Finale which I will keep as a back up bow.t. My only advice from my limited experience is don't rush your decision. The finale will certainly be a good choice of bow that can deliver in terms of technique. However it may not comfortable in your hand. Good luck in your quest.

edfriedland · #4 10-19-2009, 06:49 PM

I believe the main reason this shop called the Finale and Coda "crap" is that they don't sell them! I have the advantage of being able to go there and try it, so I guess I will. However, I have heard nothing but good things about the Finale, and I don't want to spend as much as the Coda. I know they are not expensive but, I'm a "jazz guy" looking to get back to my fundamentals.

Eric Rene Roy · #5 10-19-2009, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edfriedland

I spoke to a shop about carbon bows, asking about the Finale and Coda bows. I was told they are "crap" and that the Arcos Brasil bows they carry are much better. Naturally, I take this advice with a pound of salt, but I thought I'd ask.

Anyone who has ever had to re-hair a Coda bow can tell you they are far from crap. Far better than most CF and even wood bows for that matter. Coda is such a top shelf company...Jeff puts a LOT of research, development and $$$ into the Coda bows. You are getting a lot of bow with a Coda...and Jeff's aggressive MAP enforcement means you can buy it anywhere for the same loot. I like that...buy from the shop you want to support...not whoever is willing to race to the bottom first.

Topagege0 · #6 10-19-2009, 08:44 PM

Eric, do you have any knowledge of the finale bows? I know your shop carries Coda, are you folks at UB able to get the finale, cause I'm in the market and the only place that a google search yields is string emporium, who doesn't seem to have a way to order on the website and they cont answer their phone or return messages, I rather give you all at UB my business anyway.

Eric Rene Roy · #7 10-19-2009, 08:59 PM

sorry, no first hand knowledge of the finale...I revised my post to be coda specific as that was the brand i was defending.

The fact that the String Emporium is the only source on line tells me it is a house brand. Who knows what it is or where it is from.

I looked at the Finale pictures...it's not a Coda product from what I can tell. I'm dancing pretty close to the CUP here...so I'll take a seat.

marvin spangles · #8 10-20-2009, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topagege0

string emporium, who doesn't seem to have a way to order on the website and they cont answer their phone or return messages, anyway.

Strange? I found the String Emporium prompt and efficient to deal with.
Just e mail steve
info@stringemporium.com

hdiddy · #9 10-20-2009, 10:07 AM

I called String Emporium last week and IIRC, they are on vacation until 10/20.

SLivinghouse · #10 10-21-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Rene Roy

...and Jeff's aggressive MAP enforcement means you can buy it anywhere for the same loot. I like that...buy from the shop you want to support...not whoever is willing to race to the bottom first.

I actually avoid companies that try to enforce MAP pricing. MAP pricing essentially a pseudo price fixing scheme where retailers agree to a higher price than they fear the market would arrive at if the retailers competed. Although this may be great for retailers, it's bad for consumers, like us bassist, since we pay a price that was arrive at through agreements between manufacturer and retailer instead of competition. It's illegal in some countries such as the UK and it's been repeatedly been challenged in the US as a violation of Sherman Antitrust Act. When someone is trying to price fix against me, I take my business and shop elsewhere.

For more on MAP see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resale_price_maintenance

Steve

edfriedland · #11 10-21-2009, 02:21 PM

I spoke with someone at Arcos Brasil the other day, and they confirmed that indeed their carbon fiber bow is made in China. (Big surprise). However, they said they were happy to have found a factory that turns out very consistently high quality work. So... of course they will say that - all that is left is to try it.

Dave Irwin · #12 10-21-2009, 05:57 PM

I tried both the Coda and Arcos in the same setting and thought the Coda's were much nicer for tone and feel.

Good Luck,
Dave

robobass · #13 10-22-2009, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLivinghouse

I actually avoid companies that try to enforce MAP pricing. MAP pricing essentially a pseudo price fixing scheme where retailers agree to a higher price than they fear the market would arrive at if the retailers competed. Although this may be great for retailers, it's bad for consumers, like us bassist, since we pay a price that was arrive at through agreements between manufacturer and retailer instead of competition. It's illegal in some countries such as the UK and it's been repeatedly been challenged in the US as a violation of Sherman Antitrust Act. When someone is trying to price fix against me, I take my business and shop elsewhere.

For more on MAP see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resale_price_maintenance

Steve

You make some good points, Steve, but I think a manufacturer should have the right to demand a minimum retail price, at least for specialty, low production volume articles like bows.

By doing this they are somewhat insulated from the pressure to continously lower prices and increase volume, which will always gradually decrease quality.

Also, I doubt if people like Upton Bass would be able to stay in business if they couldn't profit from sales of finished goods, and had to live only from sales of their own instruments and repairs. Without retail markup, these shops would gradually dissappear, and then you would have nowhere to go for repairs or custom work. Just look at the mainstream music retail trade for an example. How many guitar retailers can actually do a decent setup now, compared to thirty years ago?

Price fixing between manufacturers and monopolies are certainly anticonsumer activities which governments are doing far to little to thwart, but I don't think MAP, at least in this case, is in the same category.

Besides, isn't it worth paying a little more to get a bow from someone who actually knows which end of it you're supposed to hold?

edfriedland · #14 10-22-2009, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robobass

Besides, isn't it worth paying a little more to get a bow from someone who actually knows which end of it you're supposed to hold?

Most definitely, because they're going to have to tell me!

CT DB · #15 10-22-2009, 09:22 AM

The manufacturer can set his own prices to whatever they would like. Setting the retail price is collusion. That is illegal in the US for good reason. Would you like oil companies to decide that oil is a specialty product and demand 30 dollars a gallon?

hdiddy · #16 10-22-2009, 12:33 PM

Yeah but we're talking $700 for a bow here. I think you guys can take your MAP and price collusions problems and go fry bigger fish with it instead of trolling bow forums complaining about something that they probably don't make that much money off of. Certainly, these prices don't even compare to the high end pernambuco bows. For the price you pay, it's well within reason. There's nothing to bitch about here except crying wolf over a moderately priced bow.

There's fair price fixing and then there's price gouging. Apples to oranges.

edfriedland · #17 10-29-2009, 11:14 PM

So, here is the end of the story.

I went to the shop in town (where one of the guys told me all the other bows I asked about were "crap") and tried the two carbon fiber bows they had in stock. One was a nameless Chinese bow with visible weave, the other was the Arcos Brasil (also Chinese). To be fair, this particular employee is well known for his highly opinionated hard sell. I take much of his spiel with a healthy dose of sodium chloride.

I played them in the store and liked them both, the no-name was lighter and felt lively, but was a little bright. The Arcos was heavier, but had a darker, rounder tone.

I went home with the no name.

When I A/B'd it with my own bow (a Roger Lotte - I don't know if it's good or not, it's the only bow I've ever owned in 37 years of playing) I immediately heard the difference in tone, and I didn't like it. The no-name was pretty harsh, though it grabbed the string like pit bull. I was pretty amazed at how effortless it played, especially on the E string. But... it was undeniable that the Lotte had the sweetness. So, I brought it back and exchanged it for the Arcos.

When I got it home, I did my A/B, and even had two folks in my living room blind test it, and the Arcos won!

It has a much warmer tone, and the grab and articulation that the other carbon bow had. I'm pretty excited, because all these years I just thought I plain-out sucked at the bow, now I realize that I'm only miserable. That's a big improvement I'd say!

Now I'm ready to practice until I achieve my ultimate goal - mediocrity! Wish me luck!

DownLow · #18 12-07-2009, 11:26 AM

Does anyone have any more experience with Arcos Brasil carbon fiber bows?

There is a string shop nearby who can get one for me to try. It's a bit of a drive, but I'm willing to do it for a quality product.

I've read the rave reviews for Finale and Coda. I believe they are high quality, but I'm aprehensive about buying a bow without playing it first.

Opinions on Arcos Brasil carbon bows?
What should I expect to pay for this bow?
Any other info online? I want to do my homework.