Black bow hair to deal with amplified arco?

AZNBassist · #1 02-12-2007, 07:30 AM

One thing that I was always wondering about was the difference between black hair and white hair, and if they would be able to address the issue of my acro sound and scratchiness. Right now I'm using Thomastik Spirocores which give me an awesome pizz sound (for jazz), but sometimes they just come off as pretty scratchy for arco. I can deal with the sound acoustically, as my teacher showed me how the touch of my left hand technique (vibrato) and right hand (bow pressure/speed) can eliminate this scratchiness and it is tolerable acoustically. However when I bow through an amp the sound almost always comes off as thin and scratchy no matter what. Trying to roll off the mids and treble sounds a little better, but almost ends up in a pretty synthetic bowed sound (like an EUB being bowed).

I remember someone (can't remember the name sorry) posting a comment talking about how playing with black hair and loosening the bow to let the natural courseness of black hair grip the string solved the problem for this and I was wondering if I should do this to solve the problem. Your thoughts?

Randy Ward · #2 02-12-2007, 09:19 AM

AZNBassist

Is this the thread you are thinking of:

white hair vs. Black hair

I've kinda been thinking about going with all black hair too.

Marcus Johnson · #3 02-12-2007, 09:54 AM

AZN, I've just found it hard to get a good arco sound out of Spiros in general when using any pickup. I had a Realist on the bass for awhile, and that was pretty close, but still not great. I've recently been using a mic (AMT, in my case) almost exclusively, and it's been sounding a lot better. I like Spiros for arco a lot, but they haven't ever gotten along with pickups in my experience.

I've had white hair on my current bow in the past; now it's fitted with black. I honestly don't hear much difference between the two.

Silversorcerer · #4 02-12-2007, 11:11 AM

I'm thinking if you have a thin arco sound amplified that before the hair color will make a difference or only a slight difference that you need to evaluate the difference of your acoustic arco sound and amplified arco sound first. Just a hunch and I may be wrong. My experience is that it is always good to try to improve the weakest link in the system, and that usually gives you the best improvement in sound. In your case I think that the pick-up, pre-amp, or even the amp might be a good candidate for change before the color of the bow-hair.

I do currently prefer black bow hair, but what made the biggest differences in my arco sound amplified was, strictly arco strings instead of hybrids, a carved top bass, a bridge with a better proportion of wood to leg, Oak rosin instead of Pops, and a much better, richer toned, and more powerful amplifier. All that time I had the same pickup and bowhair. I changed the bow hair last re-hair from white to black. Next, I'll switch from the pickup to a small condenser mic. I would have started with a mic, but you just know that most of the time you will have to use a pickup to avoid feedback.

I can hear the difference between the two hair colors amplified as well as acoustically. My experience is that the black is different in a lot of ways and using it you have to be more careful not to squeak, but when it is good it is very good. The white is smoother, but can be buzzier too. Currently with my strings and rosin, Helicore Orch. and Oak, I think the black hair is giving me more control.

thedbassist · #5 02-14-2007, 08:59 PM

spirocores are one of the absolute worst strings for arco, try and switch to obligato, they're a good hybrid.

PocketGroove82 · #6 02-14-2007, 09:13 PM

i think you tone is affected more by your bass, bow, strings, prowess on the instrument, pickup, mic, amp/preamp, and speaker cabinet.
These factors are far more important to your sound than salt and pepper/white/black.

**Basschair** · #7 02-15-2007, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketGroove82

i think you tone is affected more by your bass, bow, strings, prowess on the instrument, pickup, mic, amp/preamp, and speaker cabinet.
These factors are far more important to your sound than salt and pepper/white/black.

I have to disagree to some extent here. All of these definitely contribute to the overall tone of your sound, but I think the type of hair has a significant effect on the tone. Over the past year, I've used stallion, Mongolian, chestnut, silver chestnut, silver gray, salt/pepper, and straight black (keep in mind that some of these are names given by a supplier). The black I used was by far the coarsest, and was almost useless in the upper register, requiring major modifications to my bowing style. The black was nice to use in the open, first, and second positions, as it gave a nice crunchy sound to the orchestral stuff I was doing. Ultimately, it had a huge impact on the tone of the bass.

Back on topic...AZNBassist, there are quite a few types of hair available out there, and you might want to request a hair that is more coarse, without resorting to the black. There's definitely differing grades available. Of course, that's just my opinion

Silversorcerer · #8 02-15-2007, 11:45 AM

Hi Bass chair, good post and I have had similar experience except in the upper register which is where I really like what the black hair is giving me. The sound is less fuzzy to my ear.

The main point that I think Pocket and I are trying to make is not so much counter to your finding really. What we are saying is AZN's amplified sound vs. his acoustic sound will both be affected the same way by the same factors if his amplification gear is doing its' job;- making his acoustic sound louder;- and that the most likely factors causing a difference between acoustic arco and amplified arco sound don't necessarily include the color of the bow hair. The elements actually involved in amplification summarized by pocket will have the greatest effect on the amped vs. acoustic arco tone. The bow hair choice will affect both amped and acoustic tone and probably not one a whole lot more than the other.

**Basschair** · #9 02-15-2007, 01:04 PM

Ahhh, then I was misreading it.

So the black hair is good to you in the upper registers? There's always the chance that the batch I got was overly coarse. The silver gray and silver chestnut are more coarse than stalion/mongolian, and they do a great job with the upper registers. But, if I'm working on Rabbath stuff (and am trying to be faithful to his style and type of sound), then I've got to use chestnut or a purely white hair.

At any rate, I agree: the bow hair you use will have little affect on the amplified tone (ie: if it sounds a certain way accoustically, it'll probably sound that way amplified...just louder).

...I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Hi Bass chair, good post and I have had similar experience except in the upper register which is where I really like what the black hair is giving me. The sound is less fuzzy to my ear.

The main point that I think Pocket and I are trying to make is not so much counter to your finding really. What we are saying is AZN's amplified sound vs. his acoustic sound will both be affected the same way by the same factors if his amplification gear is doing its' job;- making his acoustic sound louder;- and that the most likely factors causing a difference between acoustic arco and amplified arco sound don't necessarily include the color of the bow hair. The elements actually involved in amplification summarized by pocket will have the greatest effect on the amped vs. acoustic arco tone. The bow hair choice will affect both amped and acoustic tone and probably not one a whole lot more than the other.

Silversorcerer · #10 02-15-2007, 02:18 PM

Next rehair, I'm going to try some of the chestnut, or grey as some call it. I still have white hair on my backup bow, which is otherwise very similar to my preferred bow. There are so many variables that go into playing well arco that it seems worth trying different things. I was really surprised at how different the black hair was and not necessarily in ways that I expected. I don't know too much about the Rabbath type sound, but the George Vance books that I'm being instructed from claim to be Rabbath method. It just seems like I get a clearer fundamental up higher with the black hair. The white hair kind of had a fuzzy sounding tone in it that was aggravating to me. It probably is not the same for all strings, all rosins, all basses, etc. I've only been bowing about 2.5 years and I'm still experimenting and learning.

greitzer · #11 02-15-2007, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZNBassist

One thing that I was always wondering about was the difference between black hair and white hair, and if they would be able to address the issue of my acro sound and scratchiness. . .I remember someone (can't remember the name sorry) posting a comment talking about how playing with black hair and loosening the bow to let the natural courseness of black hair grip the string solved the problem for this and I was wondering if I should do this to solve the problem. Your thoughts?

AZN -- I've used both types of hair on my bow. The hair color made no discernible diference in the quality of my amplified sound (because the characteristics of bridge-wing piezo pickups and amp/speaker so dominate the quality of the amplified sound). It didn't make much of a difference in my non-amplified sound, either; less than I thought it would. Black hair is "grippier" in my experience, but it's more of a difference in feel than in sound.