Bow Balance

[GriffithLea]

I'd like to hear from a luthier or someone otherwise knowledgeable on the subject of bow balance. Variability in preference from player to player notwithstanding, how should a bow be balanced? Is there some particular spot along the shaft that a bowmaker or luthier doing a regrip/rewind shoots for as a starting point?

I ask because I feel that my octagonal pernambuco French bow is on the tip-heavy side. I'd be interested to know if it's on the tip side of nominal balance (if the concept of nominal balance for bows exists at all).

[JimGullen]

Greetings!

Yes, there are specific recommendations for weights and balance points for bows. Like most things bass, however, there is greater variance in acceptable balance points for bass bows than for the other instruments' bows.

Having said that, the procedure for measuring the balance point is this:

1. Loosen the frog all the way. You want the eyelet as far forward in its mortise as possible. The bow needs to be haired to measure its balance point.

2. Measure the distance between the point where the bow balances to the end of the stick behind the frog. Do not measure to the end of the button. Some people will just find the balance point by resting the bow on their finger and having it balance. I like to suspend the bow by a string tied around the stick and move it until the bow is balancing.

For French bows, we generally look for a balance point of 8 inches (with a bow weight in the neighborhood of 135-145 grams). For German, we look for a balance point of 7.5 inches (and a weight around 125-135 grams).

Again there is lots of variability in bass bows, but these are good targets. If your balance point is off from these....and you feel it's a problem...it's relatively easy to move the balance point quite a bit by manipulating the grip/winding. Grips and windings are generally considered "wear items" and changing them...if done well...will usually not affect the value of the bow.

Best regards!

Jim

[GriffithLea]

Jim, thank you for the detailed response. I am going to check my bow against these guidelines to see how it balances. I'll post what I find.

[bribass]

Originally Posted by JimGullen

Greetings!

Yes, there are specific recommendations for weights and balance points for bows. Like most things bass, however, there is greater variance in acceptable balance points for bass bows than for the other instruments' bows.

Having said that, the procedure for measuring the balance point is this:

1. Loosen the frog all the way. You want the eyelet as far forward in its mortise as possible. The bow needs to be haired to measure its balance point.

2. Measure the distance between the point where the bow balances to the end of the stick behind the frog. Do not measure to the end of the button. Some people will just find the balance point by resting the bow on their finger and having it balance. I like to suspend the bow by a string tied around the stick and move it until the bow is balancing.

For French bows, we generally look for a balance point of 8 inches (with a bow weight in the neighborhood of 135-145 grams). For German, we look for a balance point of 7.5 inches (and a weight around 125-135 grams).

Again there is lots of variability in bass bows, but these are good targets. If your balance point is off from these....and you feel it's a problem...it's relatively easy to move the balance point quite a bit by manipulating the grip/winding. Grips and windings are generally considered "wear items" and changing them...if done well...will usually not affect the value of the bow.

Best regards!

Jim

The bow I'm considering for purchase is German 138 grms and has a balance point of 8 & 5/16 inches. Would you consider that "tip heavy"?

I t has a very steep camber in the middle of the stick which i'm not used to, but it is really grippy, which I like.

thanks, BG

[JimGullen]

Originally Posted by bribass

The bow I'm considering for purchase is German 138 grms and has a balance point of 8 & 5/16 inches. Would you consider that "tip heavy"?

I t has a very steep camber in the middle of the stick which i'm not used to, but it is really grippy, which I like.

thanks, BG

Greetings!

That balance length doesn't sound out of the ballpark...especially if the bow is a little longer than "normal". Since the weight of the bow is a little high, it could be a long stick. Does the bow seem tip heavy to you? Can you play it comfortably? I know that's a tricky question to answer since you're just considering purchasing the bow. Can you get the bow on approval so that you can spend hours playing on it to see that it's comfortable?

The balance point could be moved back closer to what I gave by increasing the weight of the winding/grip by a little over 2 grams. The bow is already a little heavy, so if the current balance isn't a problem, I think I would leave it as is.

Hope this helps and best regards!
Jim

[bribass]

Originally Posted by JimGullen

Greetings!

That balance length doesn't sound out of the ballpark...especially if the bow is a little longer than "normal". Since the weight of the bow is a little high, it could be a long stick. Does the bow seem tip heavy to you? Can you play it comfortably? I know that's a tricky question to answer since you're just considering purchasing the bow. Can you get the bow on approval so that you can spend hours playing on it to see that it's comfortable?

The balance point could be moved back closer to what I gave by increasing the weight of the winding/grip by a little over 2 grams. The bow is already a little heavy, so if the current balance isn't a problem, I think I would leave it as is.

Hope this helps and best regards!
Jim

Thanks Jim, yes the balance seems fine and after trying a bunch in the same price range, this stick seems to be my favorite for my purposes (Jazz improv., Klezmer time keeping, solo playing, Cabaret Calle Voce stuff, some orchestral work). I've had it for a few months now and i must make a decision. It has no winding or grip of any kind. The only thing I'm wondering about is the steep camber. The hair is so close to the middle of the stick that it touches the wood on forte and spicatto passages. Not really a big problem, but I'm "concious" of it. If I have the camber lessened a bit so there is more gap, will this comprimise the stick in any way?

BTW, I see you play a Marco Raposo. I tried one of his that I liked a lot, but the seller was grossly overpricing it from the prices I've seen on them.
thanks again , Brian

[JimGullen]

Originally Posted by bribass

The only thing I'm wondering about is the steep camber. The hair is so close to the middle of the stick that it touches the wood on forte and spicatto passages. Not really a big problem, but I'm "concious" of it. If I have the camber lessened a bit so there is more gap, will this comprimise the stick in any way?

I've not seen a bow that actually needed to have camber removed...not that I've got a ton of experience, yet. Can you alleviate the problem if you tighten the hair a bit more? Does this impact other aspects of playability? If not that might be the best answer.

On a German bow, we want the "low spot" of the camber (where the hair is closest to the stick) to be around 1/3 the tip/frog distance away from the tip. If your bow's low spot is really in the middle, it might be useful to have that adjusted. Adjusting camber is a little more than routine maintanence, but someone with experience should be able to help you out. When done well, adjusting camber doesn't hurt the stick.

It does involve heating the stick over a flame, so you want someone with experience to do the work....you might not want to watch! :-)

Best regards!
Jim

[bribass]

Originally Posted by JimGullen

I've not seen a bow that actually needed to have camber removed...not that I've got a ton of experience, yet. Can you alleviate the problem if you tighten the hair a bit more? Does this impact other aspects of playability? If not that might be the best answer.

On a German bow, we want the "low spot" of the camber (where the hair is closest to the stick) to be around 1/3 the tip/frog distance away from the tip. If your bow's low spot is really in the middle, it might be useful to have that adjusted. Adjusting camber is a little more than routine maintanence, but someone with experience should be able to help you out. When done well, adjusting camber doesn't hurt the stick.

It does involve heating the stick over a flame, so you want someone with experience to do the work....you might not want to watch! :-)

Best regards!
Jim

Well, the low spot is a bit more than 1/3 the tip/frog distance away from the tip. It's not the middle. More like 1/3 btwn tip/end of stick (before the screw). I suppose that's not far off other bows including my Gotz. But I'm talkin' like a good 3" of length where the hair has only a 1/4" gap btwn hair & stick. Even 3/32" at it's low point w/ hair pretty tight.
I have to say it's a darn good bow. Draws a big sound and deffinately the grippiest stick that I've ever tried. I love how it stays into the string so well, even on the E. But if you had to play a lot of "spicatto' in that area of the bow it might be more like "batutto" or "col legno" even.

BG

[JimGullen]

Originally Posted by bribass

I have to say it's a darn good bow. Draws a big sound and deffinately the grippiest stick that I've ever tried. I love how it stays into the string so well, even on the E. But if you had to play a lot of "spicatto' in that area of the bow it might be more like "batutto" or "col legno" even.

BG

I think that says it all....there's no need to adjust the bow. When it comes time to spicatto, the sweet spot will be elsewhere along the stick. Enjoy!

Best regards!

Jim

[GriffithLea]

Originally Posted by JimGullen

2. Measure the distance between the point where the bow balances to the end of the stick behind the frog. Do not measure to the end of the button. Some people will just find the balance point by resting the bow on their finger and having it balance. I like to suspend the bow by a string tied around the stick and move it until the bow is balancing.

I used the string, but it isn't easy! I could get the bow to almost balance, but it would slowly tip one way or another.

Originally Posted by JimGullen

For French bows, we generally look for a balance point of 8 inches (with a bow weight in the neighborhood of 135-145 grams). For German, we look for a balance point of 7.5 inches (and a weight around 125-135 grams).

OK, I came up with 8.25" and my bow weighs about 146 grams (I used my stamps.com scale and the meter flickered between 5.1 and 5.2 oz). So perhaps it is a bit on the tip-heavy side.

Originally Posted by JimGullen

Again there is lots of variability in bass bows, but these are good targets. If your balance point is off from these....and you feel it's a problem...it's relatively easy to move the balance point quite a bit by manipulating the grip/winding. Grips and windings are generally considered "wear items" and changing them...if done well...will usually not affect the value of the bow.

I think I may have this looked into at my next rehair. The winding is attempting to come loose anyway - a few weeks ago I was cleaning the rosin dust off of this bow, and I accidentally let the towel drop down too far toward the winding, and managed to pull said winding halfway down the stick, like a stretched slinky. I got it back in place, and it will hold me until the next rehair, but I intend to get my guy to fix it up at that time, which would be a perfect time to look at the balance, too. Hence this thread.

Thanks!

[JimGullen]

Originally Posted by GriffithLea

The winding is attempting to come loose anyway - a few weeks ago I was cleaning the rosin dust off of this bow, and I accidentally let the towel drop down too far toward the winding, and managed to pull said winding halfway down the stick, like a stretched slinky. I got it back in place, and it will hold me until the next rehair, but I intend to get my guy to fix it up at that time, which would be a perfect time to look at the balance, too. Hence this thread.

Thanks!

I HATE when that happens!

If the winding is still relatively tight, a little leather collar at the front ( and perhaps a dab of soldier....assuming it's silver and not whalebone) will fix that up perfectly. It's about the easiest (read least expensive) repair that can be made to a bow!

Best regards!
Jim