Bow hold woes

[sam914]

Hello all. I've been playing the double bass (somewhat lazily) for the last six years. I use a French bow. Recently, I've started to get more serious about playing, but I feel I'm been held back by my bow hold. I cannot play for more than a few minutes without pain in the muscle (tendon?) under the thumb.

One problem may be that my hands are abnormally large. In addition to being quite tall, I have a genetic syndrome whose symptoms include, among other things, long fingers. Thus, when I try to mimic the bow holds online or in books, my fingers are often cramped and stiff.

So, my questions: should I consider getting a larger bow? Does such a thing even exist for the bass? Should I consider a German bow?

Thanks!

-Sam

[dchan]

Do you have a teacher? I've found that mimicking the bow-holds found from pictures online will only make you, well, try to copy exactly what it looks like in the picture. It does not give you a sense of how to actually play with the bow.

A teacher will help immensely in learning how to actually play with the bow. When I started to learn how to play, I learned the basics of playing the bass with my teacher. Unfortunately, I stopped taking lessons after 1 summer or so because of school. I played piano for 8 years prior to that, so I was hammered by my parents and teacher in playing musically. So while I had stopped taking lessons, I still managed to play somewhat musically because I had an idea of what kind of sound I wanted to get.

While I played pretty decently for my school's orchestra, I was learning at a very slow pace without a teacher. In addition, I was picking up some playing habits. This finally came to light when I was in college. While my high school had many good bows to play with (the first conductor and the second conductor both happened to be bassists), I couldn't find a good bow to use in college. The bow I used was stiff enough, but it had terrible bow hair and was too light for what it was designed for. I had to grip it too tightly in order to get a loud sound. Around this time, I started to take lessons again.

My teacher in college taught me to use a lighter bow hold in order to draw the sound. After years of compensating to get a decent bow hold, it was a really tough task, especially with the bow I was using. While I was learning to play using a correct bow-hold, I was still struggling and tending to compensate because of my bow.

When I bought a good bow, I struggled with it at first because of the bow's weight. It was heavier than the other bow, but was much better in every regard. I was not taking lessons at the time, unfortunately. But I still remembered what my teacher had taught me not too long ago. I slowly learned how to use the bow and get a decent bow hold. Now, I have almost no trouble playing with the bow; in fact, it feels really light now despite feeling heavier before. And I have no aches or pains whatsoever, and I am not compensating with my thumb or other parts of my hands whatsoever.

I guess my point is the following: having a teacher will help immensely. Using a good bow with decent hair will also help immensely. Knowing how to play musically will also help. But the fact is that the problem that you described is, to a degree, always popping up from time to time here. French bow players seem to have a more difficult time in getting a good, relaxing bow hold. So your problem is not really unique. Do a search through the bow section and the orchestral technique section.

It has taken me several years to finally get a decent bow hold. I'm not saying that it will take everyone that long to finally get a hang of it. But the trends here point to the French bow as being more difficult to get a hang of. But as I said above, a good teacher, a good bow, and a good musical sense will help immensely.

[Andrew McGregor]

Certainly, get someone to watch you play and critique your bow hold.

Also do consider German bow, but the same advice applies there too. German can be better suited to a given person than French, but it's very hard to tell on your own.

[sam914]

Thanks for the advise, guys. My story sounds very similar to yours, Drake: a few lessons in the beginning, then a long stretch of little progress in a high school orchestra. I'm heading off to college in the fall, which prompted my desire to improve my playing.

I'm planning take some lessons soon. As you say, it is quite hard to learn the proper bow hold from the internet/books. When I try to "drape" my hand over the bow, as is often advised, my pinky ends up somewhere in Never-Never-Land. Hopefully a teacher will be able to advise me on what I'm doing wrong.

Thanks again for your help.

[Downright_Low]

I am mostly a german player but do both and think there are some basic principles that should make sense as you expose yourself to playing more and more.

Just take the stick alone. Move with it. See it almost drop, grip it more firmly. Try to explore it carefully.

The placement of the thumb and fingers is fundamental but in fact varies from player to player. Your grip must be relaxed, almost flimsy, making it stronger for only when you need. Strain is something to be felt and studied. Look at your hand as it is, lifeless before you, hanging it in the air. Everything is rounded, and feel your hand as you play, the palm and the top of the hand, the alignment of the wrist. You must develope YOUR OWN hold. It will ultimately look similar to your pictures in books.

Everything I know is from my teacher who plays french. I play german, but because of watching her play and having a couple pointers on it directly I can play with my orchestra without stress. Finding someone who does it naturally helped me a lot.

[jayarroz]

well simply put the German you use hardley any thumb except to hold it in position, your palm does all the pushing and you use your whole arm a lot more than your just your wrist. My thumb hurts when I play french, but thats because its at a 90 degree angle the whole time. German is great for long bowing....French is better for faster solo stuff. I switch between both. Plus with german your not pushing against the strings compared to pullig with your whole arm. ....But I still perfer French....so I can play faster!

[Downright_Low]

you swtich between both but you prefer french? So do you know it better?

I play mostly German, so it's cool you know to see someone throw around the differences and likenesses, I do it all the time...

I've had problems with my thumb in French bowing... but not today, and more recently. The first finger and pinky working together kind of even things out for the thumb to relax a little. But usually I'm not playing too heavily and I'm fine. I find also that with french my hand will slink in a way to the best place, which I on my cheap bow is more before the frog than above it... There's a little section about the Streicher method for german bow hold, but I don't know it. My thumb is crucial though for my german, and the palm never touches the bow.

[jayarroz]

yah weird, I feel like I hold the german with the top part of my palm a lot maybe I'm doing it wrong? And I use my thumb but just to push it aginst my palm. Actually checking now.....I have a lot of pressure on the inside of my thumb, like in the hook part that's were I push and pull. I tend to cut across the strings more with the french instead of pulling and pushing. I'm more on top of the instrument with French, on German I have to kick the bass out with my knee to do work on the E string. Hmmmm

[Downright_Low]

I feel that you must be able to have several postures with the bows, with either grip. So if your palm touches at the top, or anywhere, from time to time, maybe that's ok - I do it, too. And the thumb sometimes hooks, but is usually along the stick and rounded. I do know that when I need to play fff, though, I get on the tips of my fingers and thumb and the palm is away from the frog, so the wrist can stay as comfortable as possible and then just use the weight of my body. Francois Rabbath talks about using different grips, and if you see video of the Berlin P.O. or anyone, in their violin section you'll see differing styles. It's normal. Bows vary, instruments vary, rosins, etc., and so the grip must too in order to compensate - the musician must can do it.

Bowing the E is something that has fascinated me from the beginning and needs work with the German style. For me, if a bassist can play low and sweet then that's something - agility and all that. When standing, the bass and the body must allow for clearance, for sure. I try to keep everything minimal. With French, though, I almost hardly do anything, too. When you go down on the E with German, how is you elbow and wrist? For me, the bass has to turn also when I go to the higher strings, so that my wrist doesn't doesn't kink downward toward me. But I like more..., despite all this, and the sound differences are hand to talk about between varying bows and set-ups.

The way they play, though, is clearly different. I feel like the French can cover the sound leading to a darker sound, but also can have less crisp attack. With my equipment, I feel like my German is brighter and I can let the sound open more, versus being above so much - but all this can be settled with practice. I just think they need to be played, both of them, by all, because I think they have general characteristics that set them apart. I feel like if I learn something on French, it helps my German and vice versa, so I enjoy investigating it.

[Happynoj]

It might just be that you have to get used to playing like that. I played with a certain bow hold for years, and then came to college to do a music degree. My new teacher told me that my bow hold was awful and that I needed to change it.

So he showed me the new bow hold, and I tried it, but I could only play like it for a few minutes without quite a bit of pain - probably because my hand had never had to take pressure/weight in that position before. After 3/4 weeks I got used to it, and now from having to take 30 seconds to place my hand correctly before I played, it is my natural playing position - I don't even think about it.

The other day I tried my old bow hold, and found that same pain, presumably because my hand wasn't used to it any more.

[David Potts]

Hi. This is copied over from a thread, French Bow hold Tensions, in the Orchestral Technique forum.

"French Bow Hold Tension

Since adopting these ideas years ago I have not suffered tiredness or pain in my bow hold or arm despite a full-time job in an orchestra.

When your hands hang loosely by your side they are cupped, with fingers and thumb bent. You only have to move your bent thumb across until it opposes your second finger and keep your fingers slightly separated to have the basis for a very relaxed French Bow hold.

Two things are important to me. Thumb opposes second finger and is bent, and little finger is bent. These keep your hand cupped, muscles in your thumb and heel of hand relaxed, and wrist free to rotate in any direction.

Try these tests for wrist freedom. (1) Press your index finger against your thumb and rotate your hand in all directions around your wrist - feel the tension and clicks in your wrist (2) repeat between little finger and wrist - worse tension (3) Now press between second finger and thumb _ tension disappears and wrist is free to rotate in any direction. You can press as hard as you like and the wrist is still free to move.

Try these tests for muscle relaxation. Keep your thumb and opposing fingers straight and push them together by bending the big knuckles together - your hand forms "Kermit the Frog" shape. Feel your big thumb muscle - it will be rock hard, so to will the heel muscles (like a karate chop). Now again cup your hand and oppose the second finger with the thumb (as in bowing) and test the muscles again - the muscles are now soft and flexible.

I see the French bow hold as a balancing act between leverage (how far ahead of the thumb the index finger advances) and comfort. If you strike the right sort of balance there is no need for muscle to tense and tire, giving that "red hot golf ball" pain in the big thumb muscles. You will have plenty of leverage for all but the heaviest of playing, when you can temporarily change anyway. Spread your fingers too far and your hand stiffens. Don't advance your index finger far enough and you work like a dog, causing your hand to stiffen! I like natural spacing between fingers, just as they are when your hand hangs loosely by your side.

I drop the above hand shape over the stick, looking for the front edge of the ferrule with my second finger and the front corner of the frog with the end of my thumb. Then my thumb opposes my second finger in the bow hold!! Also it won't slip off the corner. I could put my thumb in the corner between the end of the frog and the stick but pain is caused when flesh is trapped between nail and stick.

The thumb is the fulcrum around which the bow will rotate if it wasn't supported by the strings. I think of the first finger and thumb being a hook that transfers the weight of my arm to the string. If I turn in my arm carefully by rotating the right elbow (a hinge joint that only works in one direction) up and out slightly then my elbow is free to move in the same direction as the bow and there is no conflict between weight and freedom of movement.

The fingers will point back slightly and the back of the hand is higher than the index finger whose last pad is just hooked over the stick (not straight!!!) The hand is still cupped and thumb bent but turning the hand in has thrown weight forward into the string without distorting anything. Most of the bending of fingers is with the second line of knuckles to avoid "Kermit The Frog." The hand, side on, looks more like a snake's head.

Looking down your bow arm you should see a line of power going undisturbed from your shoulder to your index finger through a fairly straight wrist that shouldn't have to pronate too much. Play with a "long arm."

I use the above "package" of bow hold and arm set-up to connect my brain to the strings with as few "road blocks" as possible. Via Tom Martin the ideas come originally from a must-have still available book by William Pleeth, famous English Cello teacher, called "Cello" ( a paperback commissioned years ago by Yehudi Menuhin )

The key word to distill from the above blah blah is "alignments."

David Potts