Breaking in a new bow/hair

Brad Maestas · #1 12-02-2009, 02:24 PM

I just got a new bow (an Upton German with black hair) in the hopes that I can again be as proficient with German as I am with French. I started on German but switched over to French while in university.

My question pertains more to the hair than anything else. I have had plenty of re-hairs done before but the new hair on my new bow is still very smooth and will not draw a sound. I first applied some fine rosin that I scraped on the top of the cake (I'm using Carlsson). Then I tried playing with it for a while (~20 mins). Then I applied some directly from the cake as normal (45º, frog-to-tip) but the hair is still so slick that once I get halfway down the stick, the hair has a tendency to slide around on the cake. Then I would continue to play long tones with it. I have repeated this a few times to no avail.

This is the first time I have requested black hair so I don't know if this is a peculiarity of it but in the past, when using white or peppered hair, I was able to draw a sound almost immediately.

Is there something else I should be doing to break the hair in or should I just continue to draw the bow on the strings to get the "scales" to stand up more? Any opinions would be appreciated.

Bill Bentgen · #2 12-03-2009, 06:38 AM

I get a rehair ever year and a half to two years. When it comes back with new hair, it makes no sound at all.

Put your regular rosin on as you normally do, play for 2 or 3 minutes. put some more on, play for 2 or 3 minutes, etc. etc.

About the 3rd or 4th application it should start playing normally. I've been doing this for 47 years.

I posted earlier about how to put rosin on. Use 5 or 6 light downbow strokes the full length of the bow on the edge of the rosin at about a 45 degree angle. The heat from the friction will soften the rosin and it will go on the bow. Watch the edge of the cake as you draw the bow and you will see how much is going on.

William Hoffman · #3 12-03-2009, 08:56 AM

Brad

i had a similar experience after i had my bow re-haired with black hair a few months ago.

it wouldn't grab. the luthier did not pre-rosin the hair, and did not use the powdered violin rosing in the re-hair job.

black hair they say is "coarser" which i guess results in it grabbing the strings differently.

there were some other threads where all this was discussed...

black bowhair has no grip.. what gives?

first time rosin-er: what's up with this stuff?

Bill

bankerwithabass · #4 12-03-2009, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Bentgen

I get a rehair ever year and a half to two years. When it comes back with new hair, it makes no sound at all.

Put your regular rosin on as you normally do, play for 2 or 3 minutes. put some more on, play for 2 or 3 minutes, etc. etc.

About the 3rd or 4th application it should start playing normally. I've been doing this for 47 years.

I posted earlier about how to put rosin on. Use 5 or 6 light downbow strokes the full length of the bow on the edge of the rosin at about a 45 degree angle. The heat from the friction will soften the rosin and it will go on the bow. Watch the edge of the cake as you draw the bow and you will see how much is going on.

I agree with Bill here except I would add etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. It took awhile but you do get there. My bow was salt and pepper...but now it plays really nice!!
-Darrell

Bill Bentgen · #5 12-03-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bankerwithabass

I agree with Bill here except I would add etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. It took awhile but you do get there. My bow was salt and pepper...but now it plays really nice!!
-Darrell

With a fresh cake of Pops, maybe just 3 "etc."s. :-)

Brad Maestas · #6 12-03-2009, 07:14 PM

Alright. Thanks, guys. I will just keep at it then. I guess all the rehairs I have had in the past have included some powdered rosin since they all tended to speak fairly quickly.

JtheJazzMan · #7 12-03-2009, 07:36 PM

After I had my bow rehaired, I applied rosin using a new cake of bernadel cello rosin. Smooth bow hair on new smooth hard rosin cake = all afternoon rosining the bow. lol.

Phil Smith · #8 12-05-2009, 07:13 AM

My experience is as follows:

Got a fresh re-hair and the bow would not grab worth beans, 7 or 8 strokes of Nymans, instant grab. YMMV

Square Bear · #9 12-05-2009, 09:52 AM

i'm going to have to disagree on how much rosin you need after a rehair. more than usual is definitely correct, but rosining your bow all afternoon is way too much. i suggest that you use the normal amount (maybe 3 or 4 swipes the first time, as opposed to 2 or 3), but a little more often (meaning maybe twice a day as opposed to every day or every other day). IMO i find that most people use too much rosin. when the hair isn't grabbing (or anything isn't working the way i want for that matter), my default reaction is to adjust myself, not my equipment. i learn a lot about how the bow really works from trying to get a good sound with too little rosin on it. i think new hair is always a great opportunity to learn something about the mechanics of it all - i would fiddle with timing and resistance and feel, then apply more rosin as a last resort.

Brad Maestas · #10 12-06-2009, 03:17 PM

I'm all for using the least amount of rosin possible but this hair is like laboratory clean! Upton says their hair is among the cleanest available and they must not be joking because I've been working it since Monday and it still isn't really speaking.

My cake of Carlsson isn't perhaps the freshest but I did have a little more luck today when I exposed it to some light steam. I had finished boiling some water for tea and I suspended the cake over the pan for a moment and it went on the bow much better but the hair is still very smooth even after a few cycles of that.

Thankfully I have my french bow to really get down to business with. Square Bear, yes it is a fact that people generally use too much rosin. I also adjust myself before my equipment and I agree that new hair (without pre-rosin) is a great opportunity to get back to the basics of it all but this hair is still just way to slick. It is unusable for performance. When it comes to intensive practice and gigging now, I need a tool that's already broken in. This has been a great learning experience. I wouldn't have guessed it would take this long to break the hair in. It's akin to breaking new bass or nylon guitar strings but on a larger scale. Now I feel like I know what to expect.

Phil Smith · #11 12-14-2009, 11:00 PM

I think your hair, strings or technique has issues, I've never experienced what you're describing though I did have issues with the hair grabbing but that was when I was new to the bow.

Brad Maestas · #12 12-16-2009, 01:05 PM

Thanks Phil. Do you mean new to a particular bow or new to a type of bow (German/French)? I took it to mean new to a particular bow. I'm not new to German though I haven't owned a German bow in a few years. I can't see how that would make much of a difference. I have played other bassist's German bows in the interim without issue. As to the strings, I've never had a problem with them not speaking. While they can be a bit finicky with the starting of notes, they never fail to actually speak with my French bow. I have been busy touring since Thanksgiving break so haven't been able to mess with it but will be playing with it again in the coming days.

bigolbassguy · #13 02-13-2010, 05:34 PM

I'm pretty sure it's your rosin. I bought the exact same bow - had the same problem. Bought some pops medium, problem solved - almost instantly.

let me know if you try / how it goes.

Brad Maestas · #14 02-15-2010, 06:32 PM

Thanks for your input. I'll definitely get a new cake and try that out. I have been too busy to worry about it since I last wrote in but I'm gonna try to see what some fresh rosin will do for me.

Hector Wolff · #15 02-22-2010, 07:19 PM

I think any time you get a rehair and don't have the shop apply a primer of powdered rosin, you are asking for a long break in.

And if you are like me, and don't like the really grabby Pops, and like to apply your rosin sparingly (a new cake of Kolstein's All Weather), it will take even longer.

I just got a rehair from a good shop, and I had them prime the hair (good white hair on a good quality french bow), but it was still a month before I was really happy with the way the bow was grabbing.

Yes, if had had really forced the issue with excessive rosining, I might have cut that down some, but I wanted to make sure the coat I was building up was smooth and even. As it was I started out rosining three times during each two hour practice session (with four moderate pressure swipes each time), and gradually backed down to my normal once with four light swipes.

I'm really happy now, but it was a long process.

Rodger Bryan · #16 02-24-2010, 08:47 PM

After taking a rehair course with Lynn Hannings and doing rehair work for students and colleagues, I became more interested in the break-in process.

What I discovered from reading through various published studies is that rosin particles are attracted to the keratin in the horsehair- opposite electrical charge. After hair is broken in, the keratin scales are apparently abraded and this increases the attraction of the rosin particles. Images from an electron microscope seemed to show that the fine particles even become embedded in the hair after the break-in. (I will dig up some sources if you are interested)

My advice is an echo of the previous posts- use less rosin at first, be patient and play the length of the bow hair using long & short bows, tremolos, etc. Add only a little at a time and keep playing. I use crushed Salchow violin rosin on rehairs.

Brad Maestas · #17 02-27-2010, 06:25 AM

Hector,
At the time, I wasn't aware that they didn't prime the hair unless asked to do so. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Thankfully I have all the time in the world to break the hair in so I will just take it nice and slow.

Rodger,
Thanks much for all the info. The dude abides. Slow and easy is the way.

Brad Maestas · #18 03-27-2010, 06:15 PM

Chiming in to say that I had success with the second pass of powdered rosin. I scraped up some more on the cake and after that the bow started speaking immediately. Now I just have to work on getting the ends of the hair to speak as well as the middle. Sounding big!

Square Bear · #19 03-28-2010, 10:49 AM

just got a rehair for the first time in about 2 1/2 years. had no trouble grabbing the string before i put any rosin on it at all, so i didn't use any for about a week. had to apply a couple swipes eventually for brahms 1 rehearsals though.

wdnewman · #20 04-17-2010, 07:33 AM

I bought an Upton German bow with black hair about 10 months ago, and have been unhappy with it ever since. It requires heavy pressure to draw out sound which means the stops and starts are best described as scratchy. Forget playing softly. I am using Pops rosin and Evah P. Weich strings. This thing should work, but doesn't.
I requested a return and replace, but Upton wasn't interested, and said I should try to sell it.