Can a teacher

[Andy Mopley]

teach both German and French grip, or take on an advanced German grip student even though they have only played French? Just curious as to how "specialized" each technique is

Thanks for reading

[chuck norriss]

They're no longer at war. You can do both.

[DC Bass]

Originally Posted by chuck norriss

They're no longer at war. You can do both.

Instant classic!

[carlis]

Originally Posted by chuck norriss

They're no longer at war. You can do both.

Best reply award.

[urbwes]

Though I'd like to also commend the previous post for it's ingenuity, I'd also like to answer the question.

The last two teachers I've studied with are both German players, but I play French. I still learn a ton and they often can still comment on my bow hold and technique. My current teacher even commented today that the difference between the two bow holds is often exaggerated. Great teachers can teach you even if you play with a different bow hold. Focus on studying with someone who has facility on the instrument and knows how to teach well (those don't always go hand in hand). I would rather take from an awesome German player than take from a slightly-better-than-mediocre-guy who plays with the same shaped bow as me. IMHO

[DC Bass]

Originally Posted by urbwes

Though I'd like to also commend the previous post for it's ingenuity, I'd also like to answer the question.

The last two teachers I've studied with are both German players, but I play French. I still learn a ton and they often can still comment on my bow hold and technique. My current teacher even commented today that the difference between the two bow holds is often exaggerated. Great teachers can teach you even if you play with a different bow hold. Focus on studying with someone who has facility on the instrument and knows how to teach well (those don't always go hand in hand). I would rather take from an awesome German player than take from a slightly-better-than-mediocre-guy who plays with the same shaped bow as me. IMHO

Good answer, but comedy aside, many players actually can and do use both bows- even if they usually favor one over the other. In fact, once upon a time it was not unheard of for teachers to recommend that their students learn both.

Why, you may ask?

While it is not as prevalent now as in days past- in some sections the bow of choice was either traditional, or selected by the principal- and you could not sit with the orchestra unless you played the "correct" bow.

So it was a good idea to be at least familiar with the "other" hold for that purpose. The ability to teach both didn't hurt either...but as urbwes points out, you can learn a LOT from a good teacher, even if they don't actually use your grip.

Joe

[Andy Mopley]

Thanks all, for the comedy routine and the advice, it's all good...I guess I am wondering then why some teachers still ask whether you play French or German when, at least on the replies here, should be of little, if any relevance?

[DC Bass]

They might be asking out of curiosity-

Also, keep in mind that while we have said that it is possible to play both or to teach a bow other than the one you play- it doesn't mean that any particular teacher will. Some may feel that they are unsuitable to teach a student who uses a grip other than their own- that they may be "short changing" the student, and that they might do better to find another instructor.

There has been speculation that German bow is less popular now than it may have been in the past- and some cite that students in some programs are being taught by non bassists- like a general strings instructor in a school who may play violin or cello- or a band director who has no string experience at all. Pupils in these situations are almost always offered French bow because it is played "overhand"- like "all the other" strings. In a situation like this, German bow may seem "weird" to the ignorant or uninitiated.

Of course, then there is simple prejudice- those who feel that one bow is "superior" to the other. The crux of the argument seems to be (near as I can figure) power vs finesse- with the German bow being better at the former, and French at the latter.

Joe

[NicholasF]

Originally Posted by chuck norriss

They're no longer at war. You can do both.

That's what french grippers would like you to think....

[chuck norriss]

I think I can French a German bow but can't German a French bow. That sounds creepy. Let's have a try.
Kidding aside people who first learned French from having played the smaller siblings of the violin family first, may naturally or conveniently acclimate to db through French but discover there's another, underhanded therefore devious & dark way, more conducive to holding a heavier bow. Or not. Without disrespecting or discounting either approach either nation or philosophy I think in 2012 it's just a physical option--bottom line. Physically, a horse tail contacting gutstrings attached to carved wood shouldn't be effected affected by underhand/overhand as much as proper application. No?

I understand the suggestion of French-finesse German-strength but of course that's not a fast rule.

France is closer to Italy but Germany closer to Austria. So let's start factions among bassists then we'll have our own war. Happy Sunday everyone.

[MostlyBass]

http://allthingsstrings.com/Bows/SEL...r-German-Style

[DC Bass]

Originally Posted by MostlyBass

http://allthingsstrings.com/Bows/SEL...r-German-Style

Great link!!!

Thanks for sharing!

Joe

[stefaniw80401]

Originally Posted by chuck norriss

I think I can French a German bow but can't German a French bow. That sounds creepy. Let's have a try.

Actually, I "German" my French bow frequently when it seems like my French bow hold is tight, and I want to loosen up my wrist. Conversely, I find it difficult to "French" my German bow because the frog being taller the balance is higher with the overhand hold and it feels like falling off high-heeled shoes.

All that said, I am proficient in, and teach, both bows.

[Andy Mopley]

How was the depth of the frog in the German bow arrived at to begin with?

[NicholasF]

Originally Posted by Andy Mopley

How was the depth of the frog in the German bow arrived at to begin with?

My guess would be that it came from older viol bows, and from there it was most likely trial and error for comfort. The bass was originally played by butlers that's why its a "butler" bow. Many times searvents would double as musicians for social gatherings, also having knowledge of an instrument shows knowledge and status in some cases. The german grip came first then arrived the french grip mostlikely from cellists who were asked to play bass but were uncomfortable to learn a new style(speculation). I'm sure its on Wikipedia...everything is, I'm sure you can get people signatures on there, social security numbers, and even a live feed of what they're doing right now...

[neilG]

Originally Posted by NicholasF

My guess would be that it came from older viol bows, and from there it was most likely trial and error for comfort. The bass was originally played by butlers that's why its a "butler" bow. Many times searvents would double as musicians for social gatherings, also having knowledge of an instrument shows knowledge and status in some cases. The german grip came first then arrived the french grip mostlikely from cellists who were asked to play bass but were uncomfortable to learn a new style(speculation). I'm sure its on Wikipedia...everything is, I'm sure you can get people signatures on there, social security numbers, and even a live feed of what they're doing right now...

That's too funny. The bow was once called the Butler bow after the American bass teacher H.J. Butler who published a method sometime in the 1870's to 1880's. You can see the method here:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage...stg&linkText=0

[DC Bass]

Originally Posted by neilG

That's too funny. The bow was once called the Butler bow after the American bass teacher H.J. Butler who published a method sometime in the 1870's to 1880's. You can see the method here:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage...stg&linkText=0

Great link!!! I love stuff like this!!!

Thanks Neil!!!

Joe

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by Andy Mopley

teach both German and French grip, or take on an advanced German grip student even though they have only played French? Just curious as to how "specialized" each technique is

Thanks for reading

Depends on the teacher.
Some can, some can't

[NicholasF]

Originally Posted by neilG

That's too funny. The bow was once called the Butler bow after the American bass teacher H.J. Butler who published a method sometime in the 1870's to 1880's. You can see the method here:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage...stg&linkText=0

Good link I need to take some bass history classes I guess, idk a lot about the history of the instrument...I'm glad you got a laugh out of it

[gerry grable]

I think all of you are missing the obvious: French bowing simply looks prettier and more graceful-- just look in the mirror.
When you down-bow the E string with the German, it looks like your scratching your knee