Carbon Graphite/Fiber Roundup

[mje]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

... In 300 years of the industrial revolution, we have used up more than half of the petroleum supply...

...My point is that if you can't sustain the process, why bother to use it in the first place?

http://composite.about.com/gi/dynami...FBDGGraph.html

1. The known petroleum reserves. There is increasing interest in the idea that petroleum is of geological and not biological origin, and that the pools we've been pumping from are few by deeper, larger resevoirs. There is some evidence for this, for example, "depleted" fields that begin producing again some years after having been capped.

2. By that argument, we shouldn't be making products using anything other than plants; no metals, minerals, etc. No metal tuners on basses, no metal wrapped strings, no adjustable bows, etc. Seems a bit drastic to me ;-)

Composite materials like carbon fiber are a very new technology and one that's barely been explored. Who knows what we'll see in the future?

[Silversorcerer]

1. The known petroleum reserves. There is increasing interest in the idea that petroleum is of geological and not biological origin

Can you find me just one PhD organic chemist or geologist who is "interested" in this idea? Long chain hydrocarbon compounds are too complex to naturally occur without being built by a life form. While we can now synthesize many of these compounds from their basic components, it takes a lot more energy to make them than they will produce. Anyway, I'm not 100% sure that there will not be an energy breakthrough, no one can be on this issue, but on the issue of petroleum supply, I'm more than 99.9% sure:- the more informed research can be found here: http://peakoil.org/. You might find the reading there interesting.

2. By that argument, we shouldn't be making products using anything other than plants; no metals, minerals, etc. No metal tuners on basses, no metal wrapped strings, no adjustable bows, etc. Seems a bit drastic to me

That's what I'm saying, sort of. Metal parts have been with us for a while, as you point out carbon fiber is new. We should be looking for alternatives to the metal also. Some metals occur naturally pure (Silver, Gold, Tin) and could be forged with sunlight furnaces, and carbon fiber may be available for very limited uses. But it simply will not be economically feasible for uses on musical instruments, and metal may not be either without the cheap energy that makes it currently feasible. And whatever energy we have in the future, it will not be as cheap as oil was, at least not in the short run. In the long run maybe, but that isn't something I'd bet on. Anyway, we won't solve the problem on a bow forum, but it is food for thought since our instruments and bows are pre-industrial in the original form.

I see no reason to give up adjustable bows, or geared tuners. There are woods such as lignum vitae, which are strong enough and self lubricating to allow for these functions. There is no reason we should give up silver wrapped gut, just expect the price to be a little higher.

[Silversorcerer]

"If the actions—rather than the words—of the oil business’s major players provide the best gauge of how they see the future, then ponder the following. Crude oil prices have doubled since 2001, but oil companies have increased their budgets for exploring new oil fields by only a small fraction. Likewise, U.S. refineries are working close to capacity, yet no new refinery has been constructed since 1976. And oil tankers are fully booked, but outdated ships are being decommissioned faster than new ones are being built."

By Mark Williams
M.I.T.'s TechnologyReview.com

"We now find one barrel of oil for every four we consume. The general situation seems so obvious.
...How can governments be oblivious of the realities of discovery and their implications...given the critical importance of oil to our entire economy."
Dr. Colin Campbell, ASPO president, in his testimony to the British house of Commons

[EJ_Dad]

My teacher, a luither at a local string shop, brought the new 'higher quality' Glasser to my lesson a couple of weeks ago.

Compared to my 'All Hail Bob's' french:
- it was lighter
- it didn't grab well, even after libral amounts of Kolstein soft (could be the hair, not the bow)
- I didn't like the balance, I couldn't dig in
(classical player on Spiro meduims)

Bottom line - I wouldn't pay what he was asking for the the bow.

[mje]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Can you find me just one PhD organic chemist or geologist who is "interested" in this idea? ....

There's been interest in Russia for decades, and indeed Thomas Gold has been accused (by them) of plagerising their work. The theory does attract crackposts, but it also attratced Shell, who sunk a lot of money into some deep drilling experiemnst to look for geological resevoirs.

As for petroleum compounds being too complex to evolve without biological action- Haldane(1937) and Oparin (1938) proposed that UV, lightning, heat caused hydrocarbons to be formed in the early atmosphere. Miller and Urey (1953) demonstrated the synthesis of organic compounds including amino acids from water, hydrogen, methane, and ammonia using only simulated lightening (sparks).

Petroleum chains? Easy, by comparison

I suggest further discussion be taken off line.

[Silversorcerer]

Petroleum chains? Easy, by comparison

Interesting, indeed. I've not heard of "comparison" as a synthetic method for long chain hydrocarbons.

I always thought of comparison as a way to view things that were similar or different. For instance if we applied lightning or a spark to long chain hydrocarbons (or short ones for that matter) in the presence of oxygen we would get combustion, CO2 and H20, not longer chains.

As for petroleum compounds being too complex to evolve without biological action- Haldane(1937) and Oparin (1938) proposed that UV, lightning, heat caused hydrocarbons to be formed in the early atmosphere. Miller and Urey (1953) demonstrated the synthesis of organic compounds including amino acids from water, hydrogen, methane, and ammonia using only simulated lightening (sparks).

mje, we are not talking about single carbon hydrocarbons such as methane, CH4. Petroleum is long chains before cracking down into shorter chains, like octane, which is 8 carbon atoms. If you want to argue organic chemistry and biochemistry synthesis by "comparison", perhaps you should sign up for some courses at your local university. Don't try to match wits using uncomparable data with someone who has passed 45 hrs. of chemistry at the university level. This is off-topic at this point and pretty much out of your league also. None of the organic compounds that are referred to in your post are long chain hydrocarbons. The only one that is a hydrocarbon is methane, with a single carbon atom. That is not a relevant comparison.

[Shmelbee]

Has anyone tried the Premiere CF bow? Woodwind/Brasswind has them on closeout sale for $90. They list for 300ish....

One of my friends bought one and it works for him. I played it and it feels nice, but I would appreciate some opinions to build on if possible...thanks.

[enyapj18]

Originally Posted by Shmelbee

Has anyone tried the Premiere CF bow? Woodwind/Brasswind has them on closeout sale for $90. They list for 300ish....

One of my friends bought one and it works for him. I played it and it feels nice, but I would appreciate some opinions to build on if possible...thanks.

I purchased the german Premiere CF bow, and for $90 I felt like I got a really good deal. It sounds IMHO just as good as my $300 brazilwood bow.

John

[Shmelbee]

The stick was really light and i felt like I had amazing control over everything. I am leery of getting a cheap bow, however...But I guess I could just get it and get it rehaired, and it will be an amazing bow that I could use whenever.

I suppose Edgar uses cheapos, too, eh?

[Eric Braunstein]

Apparently, David Gage should have their new carbon fiber bow (of their own design) in on Tuesday, Nov. 15.

[Bass_Boy05]

Try A Coda Bow. They are new on the market but thet rate unbeleivably well. They are about 650$. the website is: www.codabow.com . They come in pernambuco color, and regular carbon fiber( not really a color at all...) I tested one out and the action is amazing. Light but very powerful! Good luck with finding a bow! Oh, they are the Revelation series bow......

[LouisF]

I've been on the serious hunt for a carbon fiber bow because I am up in the High Sierras (near Mammoth) a lot of the time. I tried the Coda revelation bow and REALLY didn't like it -- I thought the tone was thin and the bow unbalanced. I'm using a Glasser braided carbon fiber bow now ($450 from Music 123 - which I think is the sister site of Woodwind and Brass) and its lighter, cleaner and fuller sounding - but not ideal.

I'm testing two Arcus bows, their new Veloce and the Symphonia, but I have to say, even though I like the Symphonia very much (very light, well balanced and big, clear sound) I can't see spending $1800 for a CF bow! The Veloce is half the price, and rather than feeling like and "entry level" Arcus bow, seems more like a hybrid -- as if somebody tried to make a "real" bow out of cf. The tone is big, but muddy and the grip is vaguely uncomfortable.

So I think the search continues, but, as I say, I am pretty content with the Glasser.

Louis

[JoeyNaeger]

Try the carbon fiber bows from Robertsons. I got one for about $1000 and have been very pleased with it. Lightweight and well balanced with a nice big tone. It's better than a lot of the pernambuco sticks that I've tried in that price range.

[LouisF]

Thanks. I'll look into it!

[jallenbass]

I have a Carbow and I like it very much. So much that I sold my Deluccia. One of my students also has a Carbow and it's a wonderful bow as well. Very good balance and a nice full sound.

[LouisF]

another one to check out! thanks!!

louis

[bassbaterie]

2 thumbs up for the Carbow (I'm a German player). It's what I'm sayin', G!

They told me and told me, but I refused to get one until my teacher took my wood bow away from me and said "don't let me see this piece of crap again". Then, he walked out of the room, called Robertson's and put the phone in my hand. Best investment to date in any bass-related item. It's a lot less expensive than a comparable pernambuco bow, and no worries about putting it in your bass bag without a separate case, or dropping it, etc. I mean, one takes care of it and all, but there's a lot less anxiety about handling it.

[dbgal]

I've currently got a Carbow on trial- I really like it. It feels great in my hand, is well balanced, & handles everything with ease. String crossings are even easier. The tone is bright and very clear. I've also got an $1100 Otto Durrschmidt on trial- it has a beautiful warm tone, but doesn't handle as well or fit my hand as perfectly as the Carbow. It's going to be a tough decision...

[mheintz]

Originally Posted by Eric Braunstein

Apparently, David Gage should have their new carbon fiber bow (of their own design) in on Tuesday, Nov. 15.

There is more information on the Gage/Coda bow here:

http://www.davidgage.com/catalog/pro...roducts_id=110