Chinese Bow wood...

[uptonbass]

Thanks for looking at the site, yes point being that many of those bows are not brazilwood, ours are, this is to warn against those that may appear that they are equivilent to our true brazilwood stick. Yes pernambuco and brazilwood are from the same tree, pernambuco is the heart wood.

Just a heads up, I agree maybe the wording should be changed.

This is very true "As a matter of fact, I believe some of the Bows from Germany and stamped with German names are most likely Chinese as they seem too cheap for a silver fitted Pernambucco Bow to be handmade in any economy in the west today"

Like you said though back to your thread

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by uptonbass

Yes pernambuco and brazilwood are from the same tree, pernambuco is the heart wood.

What I've read is that the Europeans used a wood in dye-making from Asia called "Brazilwood" and that when explorers landed in Brazil they discovered a similar tree. Thinking it was Brazilwood, and marveling at its abundance, they named the area "Brazil". This tree was however Pernambuco. To my knowledge they are not the same species. Any wood technology experts out there? Sorry, Ken, we're way off thread here

[Matthew Tucker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilwood

http://www.ipci-comurnat.org/eng02.htm

Anyone know where I can get some pernambuco seeds?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilwood

http://www.ipci-comurnat.org/eng02.htm

Anyone know where I can get some pernambuco seeds?

First off, I think we need a new thread for those in the Bows section. Second, this means that China has their own source for Brazilwood/Pernambucco as they do for Spruce and Maple as we see on the Basses made there. WOW.... 'wake-up call..'

Back to topic.. please...

EDIT: Folks, Gary's first post above was actually a reply to me from my CUT Thread on BASSES. It's my fault we wondered into Bow woods so here is the new Thread in the right place for all to discuss.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

(This is actually my first post to start this Thread because I deleted my old reply to Upton/Gary in the "CUT Bass" Thread which was too 'off topic'. Gary's first post is actually a reply to me which as I said is deleted.)
__________________________________________________ ____

We have been seeing all grades of Bows coming from China over the last few years but now they are pouring out of there in record numbers. Almost every shop Bow advertised, Ficititious name or forged brand is comming out of China.

In 1997 I met Sam Shen at a NAMM show and bought a Bass from him. He also had 4 Bows there that he made and I tried them all and bought two of them. One is now in the hands of a Philly area professional as I no longer use it and my eldest son Jon has the other. I heard that Sam has plenty of wood but no time to make Bows. The Bows they supply with their instruments are bought from other Chinese Bow suppliers.

On two other occasions while showing my Basses to potential buyers the Bow they were using was a high grade Chinese Bow. These two players play in professional Orchestras and use these Bows for major auditions so that says something to me. Both these Bows were very good and hard to tell at all from a quality French master bow.

Recently a Bow maker contacted me and asked if I would be interested to have some Bows made to my specs for sale in my shop. At first I blew him off telling him how my Bow would have to be like a Sartory or Bultitude in quality and design (I gave him exact specs) to even consider it and most chinese Bows I have seen other than the few mentioned above, have been medium to low quality at best.
He then told me he could make me some samples and send them for my approval. I gave my shipping address and went back to work thinking 'yea, sure, right'. Well, a few weeks later a Tube arrives thru UPS and I open it to find a Beautiful Sartory model Bow with all the Specs I gave him in my previous email.

I played and tested the Bow as well as showed it around. It played, sounded and handled better than alot of bows costing up to 10x it's price. This is a fact as my friend borrowed it to show a student looking for a good bow only to find they just bought a Morizot Bow for 6k. The student tried it and liked it even better. The parents were, well let's just say 'not pleased that he showed the Bow to their son' or rather were kickin themselves in the butt for not shopping a little longer.

Ok, next I order 10 Bows of various grades and price points as well as 1 German model to see if they can do it again. I wire the money, kept my fingers crossed and within about a month a small box comes from UPS and I get 10 Bows just like the sample.

Then I go and test them all and then test against my Sample to find that the Sample has warmed up a bit after a month or so. My Bultitude did this exact same thing as well after I played it for awhile. So these Bows made in Pernambucco from China act, feel and sound just like the classic French and English Bows from yesteryear as far as the high end range goes.

In brief (I know 'I' haven't been brief at all..lol), China now supplies about 80% of the Bows today in the world. If the Bow you buy sounds low priced for what it is or has a name you never heard of or looks like a famous name but brand new, regardless of what country the Bow is being sold from, chances are that it is Chinese made!

Most of the bows from China will not be great unless they are made from the best grades of wood by a good maker and designed well. These will not be as cheap ofcourse. Suppliers can now offer Bows from China including Snakewood (origin in China?) fully fitted like a French Bow in Silver for $500-$1000 depending on the Bow and fittings and some for less still in Pernambucco. Handmade Bows from USA and Canada can easily run 2-6k from contemporary makers. Brazilwood Bows run half or less than the Pernambucco Bows depending still on the grade, fittings and model.

Are these Bows from USA and Canada better than the Chinese? For the most part, yes but paying 2k for a quick made North American bow does not mean it is better than a handmade Bow from a Chinese maker well trained and skilled in the same craft and maybe in the same school.

Shop carefully. It's open season on Bows, Bow makers, Bow suppliers and Bow buyers... There's a new Country in town.. 'Ne how ma'

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I asked one of the Bow suppliers about the wood they use and mentioned this story about the Brazil naming and discovery in regareds to them using domestic Brazilwood as mentioned by Matthey Tucker in an earlier pose here.

This is the answer I got;

"Dear Ken:
No, I never heard this story. I know all of Chinese bow makers use imported Brazilwood and Pernambuco to make bows, even very cheaper bows. No body use Chinese wood for bows,this is true."

So if this is true then my previous thought of domestic wood is just an old Myth. I was also told that there is some old supplys of Pernambuco/Brazilwood available to Bow makers by specialty wood suppliers in China that is aged at lease 10 years after cutting.

[uptonbass]

Ken from what I have been told by various makers is that the wood is jujube aka chinese date wood. This is a native wood to the continent for MANY MANY centuries. It has been used also for much time in many other industries such as furniture. It IS also used as fittings for many of the cheap Chineese instruments. Even that bass fingerboard material we often scratch our head at saying....what the heck is this stuff, sure isn't maple.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Is that what Sue Lipkins uses? Because the Pernambuco Bows I got look just like the wood in hers and my old Sartory? I have been buying Bows for 40 years (with a 15 year break so 25 solid) and know what the wood looks like. Arnold has seen one of them and also one of my old Shen Bows, also Pernambuco.

IF, this is NOT Pernambuco and I was misled (lied to) then they can ship me Bows until I run out of money and credit line? As a matter of fact, these are some of the best sticks of Pernambuco I have seen. I don't wanna throw names of makers out here but I tried out one of the Canadian makers Bows used for about 2k or so and these beat it head to toe. Also, I played another older Canadian made Bow and again, much much better. I played an old Morizot eariler this year and again, these are better.

Now I think it's a combination of the design, wood and workmanship and not just the wood. All the Bows I mentioned had good to great wood but they just don't always play as well. I can play this Bow at the 4th quarter of its length to the Tip and not loose the sound where many other Bows often fail.

I could be totally wrong but once again, if what I am getting is not Pernambuco, then we have found an equal substitute.

[Jake]

Ken, are you selling these bows? If so, what are the prices of the french and german models? Thanks.
JN

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jake

Ken, are you selling these bows? If so, what are the prices of the french and german models? Thanks.
JN

Who me?... Yes BUT, I can't OPENLY Spam so you have to PM me.
They are on my website here; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double.../Bows/bows.htm
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double.../KSB_bows.html

Oops.. is answering a question half way considered Spam? Or the way the subject came up? I might be in trouble here but I pay my dues helping others that I have no connection at all in the sale one way or the other.

I am also using one myself as my second or third Bow to my Lipkins or Bazin when I don't want to risk anything or when it's a casual gig. Last month in the 1812, we had 3 Basses only (of 4 called) and all of us used these for the entire Concert. I went home with only the one I played.

I like finding good things and offering them to others. It's more of a Hobby for me than a business. I often sell Basses I buy and fix for cost and sometimes below if the repairs ran high and the value didn't. I have a Job but the DB thing is my hobby.

[Brent Nussey]

Hi.

One thing to consider or maybe look into here is this: Sue told me that right now there's a moratorium on the purchase of new pernambuco among the members of whatever the big American/European bowmaking association is (I can't recall the name..), because the wood is so endangered now. They're also involved in efforts to save/restore the supplies of the wood. If there are Chinese (or any other) companies just going in and buying up the last of the wood ignoring these issues/efforts and therefore can supply lots of cheap bows, I'm not sure that I'd want to own one. I don't know this to be true, or even if these bows are made out of pernambuco and not some other Chinese wood. But if they are importing newly harvested pernambuco, this may be harming efforts to preserve the wood for the future. Maybe someone can try to find out about this.

Brent

[Damon Rondeau]

Check this out.

[uptonbass]

Ken,

So now your into selling double bass stuff? I thought that was never a plan of yours based on things you have said in the past....... Just to be a collector..

Are the electrics not doing so well...surley you dont need to make up for a loss........do you?

[uptonbass]

Well heck upton bass better spit out some fretted things with pickups

[uptonbass]

Just teeeezing buddy, I know your toooooo obsessed to make it more than a hobby

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by uptonbass

Ken,

So now your into selling double bass stuff? I thought that was never a plan of yours based on things you have said in the past....... Just to be a collector..

Are the electrics not doing so well...surley you dont need to make up for a loss........do you?

Gary, I sold DB stuff in the 70s and 80s. I am just getting back to the other half of my 'hobby'! My Hobby has always been my work. Imagine living the life of waking up each day, going out to play and getting paid for it. Nice, huh?

The Electrics are doing just fine. We are at full capacity with a 4-6 month back order. There is no loss at all to make up for but just the opposite. It has been the success of my business that has allowed me in the last few years to buy the Gilkes, Martini, Dodd, Prescott, Fendt, Loveri and several others including Bows by Lipkins, Bultitude, Bazin and more.

Wanna throw some frets into your Upton shop Basses, be my guest....

[uptonbass]

[Jake]

Well, I sure am glad you're into the double bass, Ken. I've really learned a lot about basses and bows reading your posts.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jake

Well, I sure am glad you're into the double bass, Ken. I've really learned a lot about basses and bows reading your posts.

I have too! It's a never ending experience.

[pjwolf]

Matthew Tucker- you can get seeds @ www.tradewindsfruit.com .........are you going to be the "johnny appleseed" of pernambuco? Plant lots of trees!