Different German Grips

[spikesstickies]

Hi guys, I been playing the German bow ever since I've started and was just wondering about the different styles of holding a German bow. My teacher tends towards a more Czech styled grip with the thumb going parallel with the stick of the bow whereas I tend to gravitate towards a grip with my thumb falling perpendicular with the stick.

My teacher claims that both grips are acceptable but I noticed that a lot of the orchestra players who use German bows tend to go more with the Czech grip. Just wanted to know if both ways were really acceptable. I have problems holding the bow in the Czech style cause it puts my thumb it a rather uncomfortable position where it impedes my natural wrist motion as I bow.

Any thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated!

With Regards,
Kenneth

[Dr Rod]

Originally Posted by spikesstickies

Czech style puts my thumb it a rather uncomfortable position where it impedes my natural wrist motion as I bow.

I could not agree more, that's why I ended up with the Streicher/Austrian grip:

-frog deep into the palm
-thumb perpendicular to stick
-thumb laying straight over the stick and in some cases touching the index
-index over the stick as well

this grip frees up your wrist and has a wonderful heavy spicato.

BTW, all grips are acceptable.

[spikesstickies]

Great! Thats very similar to the grip that I'm using now. At least now I know it has a proper name. Thanks for the reply!

[mheintz]

See http://www.robertoppelt.com/page8.html, where Robert Oppelt (principal of the National Symphony Orchestra) has pictures of different German grips.

[spikesstickies]

Neat! That was really helpful! Pity they couldn't show a front profile. Would be interesting to see how the last 2 fingers differently support the weight of the bow but I'm pretty sure they are quite similar considering not much has been said about them.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Dr Rod

...the Streicher/Austrian grip...frees up your wrist...

This was also my experience when using this grip.

When I was taking lessons, my teacher (who used both German and French bows) saw my problem right away and insisted that my wrist be free of tension often.

When I became accustomed to that free-wrist feeling after experimenting with the Streicher grip for a month or so, I could return my thumb to the top of the stick and still have that same untense wrist. I think it was simply because I was keeping my thumb from being able to move (gripping too hard), and that was what kept my wrist from moving. Anyway, I went back to the thumb being on top and that's how I hold the bow still.

But everybody's unique to some degree and with the very, very best players you can see immediate evidence of this as they play...though of course there are "best practices" that everybody should try out as well (like bowing with a wrist that is not tensed up and motionless).

That Oppelt link is cool thanks for sharing

[mheintz]

Originally Posted by spikesstickies

Neat! That was really helpful! Pity they couldn't show a front profile. Would be interesting to see how the last 2 fingers differently support the weight of the bow but I'm pretty sure they are quite similar considering not much has been said about them.

I agree that it would be nice to see the grip from various angles throughout the stroke, rather like Art of the Bow. In any case, Mr. Oppelt keeps his pinky on the bow and the third finger sits idle. See his questions and answers: http://www.robertoppelt.com/page4.html.

As a result of emails with Mr. Oppelt, I have been curling my first and second fingers slightly more with the index finger slightly behind the second finger on the stick and the second finger touching the top part of the frog. A very small change, but I think that my precision has improved.

[Dr Rod]

Originally Posted by Johnny L

of course there are "best practices" that everybody should try out as well (like bowing with a wrist that is not tensed up and motionless).

Even though my experience is very similar to yours, I do have to say that I have seen people play incredibly well with a motionless wrist. Eugene Levinson, Orin O'brien, Donald Palma and many others intensely advocate a firm wrist.

To each his own !

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Dr Rod

I have seen people play incredibly well with a motionless wrist. Eugene Levinson, Orin O'brien, Donald Palma and many others intensely advocate a firm wrist.

To each his own !

Can't argue with that!

[toman]

I don't get the fixed wrist thing, but it works for plenty of people. I learned German bow with the Streicher technique, and I always come back to it. Sometimes I play French, too, but it feels to me that for any advantages French might have, it feels hard on the joints and such.

[spikesstickies]

Originally Posted by mheintz

In any case, Mr. Oppelt keeps his pinky on the bow and the third finger sits idle.

Thats exactly what I do, with only the tip of my pinky coming into contact with the slide of the frog. It sort of acts like a spring/suspension to properly balance the weight of the bow. My third finger tends to rest in the arched region in between the frog.

As with the wrist motion, I usually just like to picture it as a natural motion that shouldn't be forced, if it comes it comes. A thousand and one problems can be attributed to a rigid wrist, but I think what really matters is that you're making a pleasant tone.

[dkziemann]

In my experiences with the German bow and from what my teachers said (who are at high level music conservatories), I dislike the method of frog deep into the palm and thumb perpindicular to the stick. For me, with the thumb like that, I can get NO power from the sound and I have less control. I also have limited movement when the frog is buried deep into the palm.

[Roar!]

I'm a noobie but my teacher plays a french bow and my school lent me a german bow. He told me to to hold it with all four of my fingers under the handle with my index running along the stick (i don't know the right word) and to have my thumb lying across the top with thumb palm down.


It works for me, any thoughts on this?

[spikesstickies]

Originally Posted by Roar!

I'm a noobie but my teacher plays a french bow and my school lent me a german bow. He told me to to hold it with all four of my fingers under the handle with my index running along the stick (i don't know the right word) and to have my thumb lying across the top with thumb palm down.


It works for me, any thoughts on this?

Hmmm don't exactly think this would be a good way to start, 'hamfisting' the bow is definitely going to build up some bad habits which will come back to haunt you undoubtedly. Think you should get a teacher to properly teach you a grip that is suitable for your style of playing.

For a start, try supporting the bow with your index finger on top of the stick and the tip of your pinky at the slide of the frog. If you do it right you should be able to hold the bow up with those fingers only, and the rest of the fingers should fall nicely into place. i.e. you thumb on the stick before your index, your middle at the side of the stick and lastly your forth finger in the bout of the frog. It'll definitely feel weird at first, best to get someone experienced to show you.

[Andrew McGregor]

That almost sounds like the grip I was taught by someone who used to teach at the Kiev conservatoire. Basically, hold the stick like a pencil, and then the bottom of the frog goes in the gap between third and fourth fingers. Second ends up on the side of the frog. The trick is, keep the wrist free and don't let the frog bind against the palm (or the inside of the knuckles, really) except right at the point or while turning around at the point end of a stroke.

[DFW5String]

Yikes!
I started with French.
I love the German bows.

When standing and playing, I hold the German bow as if it were French, with the thumb deep inside the frog and fingers over the stick. High power, control good feel for me.

I am learning that when sitting I am holding it in the conventional way as Rabbath's and Barry Green's books show. Less power, good control, good feel.

[spikesstickies]

Just thought I should update a little. Lately I've been experimenting with different german grips with my teachers, I used to be a hardcore Streicher grip user but recently I've tried to adopt a more czech styled grip. Mainly having the thumb (on its side) parallel to the stick and also with the index on top of the stick. Very much like a hybrid between position 6 and 4 (http://www.robertoppelt.com/page8.html). I started by focusing on keeping my thumb in that position while just relaxing the rest of my fingers, bad idea, it really caused quite a bit of pain to my thumb, particularly at the joints. I went back to my teacher and he told me that the power should be originating from the index as well, not too sure if it was in any particular ratio, and this guy knows his stuff, he studied with Miroslav Vitous back in school. So I went back and work on it a little and it felt better, I'm definitely working more with this grip as compared to the Streicher due to the plain simple fact that it has a lot of power in it, it transfers the weight of your entire arm into the strings, all you have to do is drop your shoulders and keep em relaxed as with any style of bowing. My thumb still gets quite sore, especially when I first get my thumb into position before playing, once it warms up its fine. Any suggestions though to minimize the sores?