Ergonomic bow?

[Jeff Guevin]

I had a thought, and wonder what the resident bow experts think: why don't we seem to have a more "ergonomic" bow available? Obviously we can adapt to the French and German styles, and wonderful things can happen, but as I'm switching from German to French and enduring all the pursuant frustration (not to mention cramping muscles), I wonder why the frog is such a (to my eye) hand-unfriendly shape. Why not have a shape that makes it easier to hold a bow in a relaxed manner? Why not have a spot for the thumb that actually fits a human thumb? I suppose such a solution might need to be custom made for each bassist, but I for one would be interested in forking over the dough necessary. And I imagine that the cost of customization relative to the cost of finer bows would probably be pretty marginal.

Thanks for your thoughts. Back to the damned bow.

[anonymous0726]

Two thoughts:

One, it would be akin to putting little levers on your strings to make plucking them easier.

Two, if you feel the need for this type of creation, it's probably because you're doing it wrong and the alteration would make what you're doing easier to do. When you get it right (and there are many 'right's), you'll likely remember this wish of yours with half a smile...

[Jeff Guevin]

Originally Posted by Ray Parker

Two thoughts:

One, it would be akin to putting little levers on your strings to make plucking them easier.

Two, if you feel the need for this type of creation, it's probably because you're doing it wrong and the alteration would make what you're doing easier to do. When you get it right (and there are many 'right's), you'll likely remember this wish of yours with half a smile...

Thanks for your response, Ray. Well, of course I appreciate that the existing designs work, with considerable practice, and of course I realize that I will become comfortable (again) with the French grip long before there's an alternative. And I am doing it wrong--ever so slightly, just enough to make the second or third hour of practice pretty unpleasant. But it just seems to me that while the shape of the frog and its position on the stick is very well suited for the function of the bow (tension, spring, response, etc.), perhaps it's a little less than ideally suited to the human hand. No one's with me here?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by jguevin

Thanks for your response, Ray. Well, of course I appreciate that the existing designs work, with considerable practice, and of course I realize that I will become comfortable (again) with the French grip long before there's an alternative. And I am doing it wrong--ever so slightly, just enough to make the second or third hour of practice pretty unpleasant. But it just seems to me that while the shape of the frog and its position on the stick is very well suited for the function of the bow (tension, spring, response, etc.), perhaps it's a little less than ideally suited to the human hand. No one's with me here?

I don't know what kind of Bows you have played but a well balanced Bow in a trained hand feels to me like part of my hand. It's not a problem unless the Bow is unbalanced or is just not a good bow and forces you to compensate to make it work. Try some real good bows and work your way back from there.

[Jeff Guevin]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

I don't know what kind of Bows you have played but a well balanced Bow in a trained hand feels to me like part of my hand. It's not a problem unless the Bow is unbalanced or is just not a good bow and forces you to compensate to make it work. Try some real good bows and work your way back from there.

Well, I'm playing an Upton Workshop bow at the moment, which have good reviews for a budget bow. It does seem fairly heavy to me, though, and the balance point is further out on the stick than I'm used to. Just measured, and the bow weighs about 150-155 grams on my crappy kitchen scale, but the balance point is about 1-1/2 inches from the end of the winding, a good inch further than on my German bow.

I may take a trip down to Shar down the street and try some samples out of their barrel o' bows to see if a lighter or differently balanced bow feels more comfortable to me. I'm a ways off from buying a significantly better bow, though.

So I guess I'm not inspiring a new industry of gentler, kinder bow grips. Thanks for the input, anyway!

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by jguevin

Well, I'm playing an Upton Workshop bow at the moment, which have good reviews for a budget bow. It does seem fairly heavy to me, though, and the balance point is further out on the stick than I'm used to. Just measured, and the bow weighs about 150-155 grams on my crappy kitchen scale, but the balance point is about 1-1/2 inches from the end of the winding, a good inch further than on my German bow.

I may take a trip down to Shar down the street and try some samples out of their barrel o' bows to see if a lighter or differently balanced bow feels more comfortable to me. I'm a ways off from buying a significantly better bow, though.

So I guess I'm not inspiring a new industry of gentler, kinder bow grips. Thanks for the input, anyway!

You have a PM.

[JimGullen]

You have another PM

Best regards!
Jim

[lperlste]

I was dealing with really bad carpal tunnel problems mostly due to work related issues, so I spent some time looking for a "friendlier" bow that wouldn't make my hand numb. I found nothing. The closest thing was a device from Lemur (I think) which was supposed to be a cushioned grip. Turns out it was a length of soft plastic tubing that fit over the stick just above the frog. Frankly, it's look bad but it worked pretty well. It just added enough width to make it easier to grip the stick. I think there's a market here for a better ergo-bow!

[jfv]

Originally Posted by lperlste

I was dealing with really bad carpal tunnel problems mostly due to work related issues, so I spent some time looking for a "friendlier" bow that wouldn't make my hand numb. I found nothing. The closest thing was a device from Lemur (I think) which was supposed to be a cushioned grip. Turns out it was a length of soft plastic tubing that fit over the stick just above the frog. Frankly, it's look bad but it worked pretty well. It just added enough width to make it easier to grip the stick. I think there's a market here for a better ergo-bow!

Bow rubbers (which is what you found) are a pretty standard
add-on. Francois Rabbath has one on all his bows (his video
shows a wall with bows lined clear across it), I figured if
the master does it then so should I Only change I'd make
is the next one will be black cuz they get rather scummy
looking after a while.

Having your hand get numb sounds like an issue with the
overall hold and not just the thumb however.

I agree with Ken, it is not something you will learn with no
training, but with that training the bow will feel perfect as
it is, no ergonomics needed

Cheers,

[D McCartney]

I'm confused. What are the bow rubbers for?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by D McCartney

I'm confused. What are the bow rubbers for?

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...ipkins0002.JPG
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...rog_bottom.jpg
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...mages/frog.jpg

[Bobby King]

They make an ergonomic bow -- it's called the German Bow! heh-heh

[bassist14]

Originally Posted by Bobby King

They make an ergonomic bow -- it's called the German Bow! heh-heh

[EFischer1]

Originally Posted by Bobby King

They make an ergonomic bow -- it's called the German Bow! heh-heh

I like your style.

[Jeff Guevin]

Originally Posted by Bobby King

They make an ergonomic bow -- it's called the German Bow! heh-heh

You know...last night I was feeling a little sick of my struggle with the French bow, and picked up my spare German (a Chinese student bow--real wood!), and my problems evaporated.

I still prefer the feel of bow changes and string crossing with French, but the simple act of "making an even sound" became so much simpler. I think all the work I've been doing on relaxing and using the right muscles on French paid off on the German, too, since it's never felt so natural before. Oh, except on the E string.

Anyway, I'm not decided one way or the other--I'd like to end up on the French bow, but since I'm primarily a jazz player I need to consider how much time I'm willing to spend on it, too.

Next step--rubber tube thingie.

[D McCartney]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...ipkins0002.JPG
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...rog_bottom.jpg
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...mages/frog.jpg

Are those supposed to make it more comfortable to hold?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by D McCartney

Are those supposed to make it more comfortable to hold?

Yes, but the Bow balance and quality helps too. I put those on several other Bows that were not as balanced to me and it made a HUGE difference to me.

[jfv]

Originally Posted by D McCartney

Are those supposed to make it more comfortable to hold?

Ken has his rubber a bit forward of where I have it,
you pull the rubber way back til it starts to slip over
the frog.

As for what it does, when you have a traditional
'french' hold the tip of your thumb sticks straight
into the stick right in front of the frog, with the
bow rubber there it cushions your thumb.

Secondly, your index finger comes out OVER the
top of the rubber on the stick and wraps down
at the second knuckle, so it kinda cushions that
as well.

The rubber will not 'make' your hold, it needs to
be correct regardless, however with a correct hold
the rubber makes it feel softer you might say.

As Ken notes, balance is everything, Rabbath
shows a number of ways to detect correct balance
of your bow on his video. And, yes, the rubber
can help in setting balance.

I wouldnt have a bow without one at this point.

[Bobby King]

My teacher used to say that there was a "grass is always greener" aspect of French versus German. Both have advantages in performance and there are wonderful players using either one.

Admittedly, I'm prejudiced because I play German, but I do feel that it is more ergonomic. The forearm is in a more relaxed, less twisted position; and with the German frog, you are barely holding the bow -- it's more like your hand simply cradles the frog. But many of the principles of bowing technique remain the same with either bow.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

First off, the Rubber for me IS in the right place as I use mainly use the Italian style grip. On occassion for light bouncy things I might slide into french but still the placement of the rubber is not a factor for me either way. I was taught to spread my fingers and slide my first finger forward half way up the grip for better balance. Even for french hold the rubber is mainly for my first finger. For extra gripping I rub my thumb on the Bridge and rosin up my thumb. Then I rub the rosin on the frog so the oils in my skin combined with the oils in the ebony don't create extra slide but rather a firm grip.

Now, on this Ergo. kick you guys are talking about, I also learned that some peoples' bone structure may be better for one or the other type of Bow. Standing straight with your hands as your sides if your palms are facing your legs, German might be more natural to you. If your knuckles are pointing forward slightly or about a 45% angle then French Bow might be more natural for you. I don't know how true this is BUT for me it is and I play French Bow (pretty darn good, so I'm told) but my German bow technique is a bit spastic to say the least.

Having played the French Bow for over 40 years and with every quality known to man I can say with certainty that most bowing problems start early on with FIRST a BAD Low Quality bow that forces the student to develope bad habits and make compensations to get the sound from the bass. Second, the people teaching most youngsters are often hurting more than helping. My eldest gave it up after his first year (4th grade) and came back to the DB b4 college and my youngest did it for 5 years straight (4th thru 8th grades) but in both cases I fought with them NOT to hold the bow like the teacher told them. She was Clueless and had less Bass classes than I had Art classes. Also, do-it-ur-selfers often buy a Bass and the Bow is secondary so they go and get the cheapest thing with hair they can find and by the time they get a sound out of the Bass, they need 1-2 years of re-training with a professional Orchestral bassist to re-train the muscles and correct all the bad habits.

Bad equiptment and poor or no training is the main reason people have trouble with the French Bow. For basic stuff, the German Bow is very easy to pull and 'force' sound out of a Bass but to draw sweet musical bowings across the strings with either style requires both training, practice and a good bow.