Finale Carbon Bow

[Dr.G]

Hi,

I have recently bought a Finale Carbon bow (French) from Stringemporium for 340 dollars http://www.stringemporium.com/carbon...-bass-bows.htm. This price included a hard-case and a cake of rosin of choice.

During last weekends rehearsal I got to use my new bow a lot. We played a lot of Finnish folk in which my role was more to set an atmosphere in addition to setting time/groove. Normally, I play mostly Jazz, so this was all very interesting for me. I could get very soft whispery sounds with the carbon bow but could also make the strings roar or bark very loud, or shift from mean and sharp to very lyrical. The carbon bow has a good balance, it bounces on the strings very well and I can get a nice momentum going when playing faster. With my old bow I had to struggle more to get the sounds I wanted and it felt like the bow was holding me back. This bow lets me go wherever I want, until it’s my technique that’s holding me back. I’m not a classical player and I think it will take me many years of practicing before this bow will limit me in my playing. For my purposes, I think this is an excellent and also very durable bow.

Upon arrival of the bow in Finland, I was a bit disappointed that my bow isn't solid black like the pictures on the website. Instead, it has a visible carbon fiber structure like the Codabow on the bottom of the webpage. However, the fiber structure does look cool and it’s nice to be able to see what the bow is made from. Also, I now see that it’s written in bold on the website that you have to specify which finish you want. Apparently, the carbon-fiber-look is the default if you forget to specify this.

Anyway, whatever finish, I’m very happy with this bow. Actually, for 340 dollar this bow is extremely nice. I wonder where they are made (China?) and how. It seems to me that a good carbon bow is much easier to reproduce than a wooden one, once you have a good design. With wooden bows every individual bow will be different, requiring a lot of craftsmanship to make it right. If made well, a wooden bow will have a lot of personality, while all the carbons will probably sound the same. Also, I’m curious what classical players on the forum think about this bow.

Best regards,
G

[John Perrin]

I've also got one of those, though mine is a German style bow. I'm extremely pleased with it after having put up with a cheap brazilwood bow for years.

[LouisF]

see this thread:

Can you recommend a brand of bow


Louis

[Dr.G]

Originally Posted by LouisF

see this thread:

Can you recommend a brand of bow


Louis

That’s an interesting thread about recommending an affordable bow. The movie in which Jason Heath compares the carbon bow to a 4000 dollar bow is very revealing.

But to continue the thread about carbon bows: Who made the initial designs, are they copies from famous wooden bows? Where are they made and how? Who is making them, high throughput factory or still handcrafted? Etc…

How much of the character of the total sound comes from the bow in relation to from the instrument? If playability is more important than personality of the bow, than carbon would be the way to go for bows under a 1000 dollar … or not?

Cheers,
G

[LouisF]

OK - here goes my first "grumpy old man" post (See Paul Warburton's thread about the "sad state of affairs here":

Go to the top of this page, click the "search this forum button" and type in carbon fiber bows. There are pages of discussions.

LF

[Dr.G]

Dear LouisF,

I’m not a “newbie” in the world of the DB, I know how to do a search and I certainly have nothing to do with those ”sad state of affairs”.

Irritating you has never been my intention. And I assume you didn’t want to irritate me (which you did!). I’m just happy with my Finale bow and was wondering where and how the carbon bows are made. Some of my questions were indeed discussed in older threads, some were not. Besides, I started this thread also to share my enthusiasm for my new bow. Well, if this bores you, let it be…

I could now easily shift gears and also go into grumpy-old man-mode. However, I’m sure you also love the double bass and just wanted to help me find my way in this forum.

So,

Thanks and best wishes,
G

[Dr.G]

Hi Louis F,

Being curious about the bassist I accidently irritated, I checked out your website and found out that you performed Patrick Suskind's “the double bass”! I have to admit that I didn’t see or read that play. But I will! Wouldn't that play make and interesting thread here on TB? Mmm, I’d better do a thorough search first ...

[LouisF]

I did the Suskind play for almost 20 years around the US, in London, Tokyo and for NPR - I think it's absolutely required reading!

And Dr G - exactly, my tone may have been grumpier than my intent - there is a lot of discussion of cf bows - I've had the Karrbow and the Gage metro in the past and I think the finale (for less than 1/2 the price) is an excellent option.

Louis

[Andrew McGregor]

I think carbon IS the way to go for bass bows... Pernambuco is borderline endangered, and an inconsistent, difficult material. Carbon, on the other hand, might be a bit expensive but carbon and epoxy are industrial products made in enormous quantity, and perfectly consistent. So once you have a good set of moulds and a layup schedule, I don't see any problem with making lots of good bows.

[dchan]

Carbon fiber bows have a lot going for them: satisfying amount of stiffness versus flexibility, sometimes a much louder sound than wooden bows, and excellent playability. But they also leave a few things to be desired.

One is that while it can produce a very loud sound, it is often a sound without much character or warmth. I don't know what the reasons are for it, but somehow, Pernambuco bows simply have more character and nuance in their sound; it simply sounds more 'organic'. And after playing pernambuco bow for several months or years, the sound starts to open up (I think it does). I don't know whether that happens with CF bows at all.

Another is that the bows might be too consistent. Each bow will probably do the exact same thing as another bow will. To some, the differences in not just the sound but also the playability. Some players like this variation.

And while a bowmaker can put his/her favorite characteristics onto a CF bow to be manufactured, it will probably never match what he/she can do with his/her own hands on a blank of pernambuco or any other wood.

[funkydanbass]

I can't find these advertised anywhere on the web except the stringemporium webpage. Does anyone know what the Finale homepage might be?

Are these just re-badged Articul's?

[Dr.G]

I found this about the manufacturing process of carbon bows. It’s from Science Friction by Heather K. Scott, from Strings Magazine, October 2002:

“The production of carbon fiber bows involves a peculiar mix of craftsmanship and rocket science. Carbon fiber, a composite material, is made up of two major components: a reinforcement fiber; and a matrix, or resin. This gives the resulting mixture of carbon and fiber mechanical properties that far exceed the capabilities of these separate ingredients.
When we talk about nonwood bows, the reference is usually to either glass fiber or carbon fiber. But the notation of "fiber" as the material used in these bows is a rather broad term. As this article focuses on carbon fiber, let's narrow our look to that synthetic material alone. A more specific term used in carbon fiber bow making is "graphite." When you see bows described as graphite fiber, this means they are constructed from the highest grade of carbon and designed using the most precise standards of manufacturing. The type of fiber used in carbon fiber bow making is called a "pan" fiber (a thermally stable, chemically resistant fiber).
The manufacturing process begins with a thread of material with a carbon base. This material runs through a sophisticated oven where the fiber is stretched and heated in an environment lacking oxygen and rich in nitrogen (this process is called pyrolizing). As the carbon stretches, extraneous atoms burn off until a new carbon substance is formed.
Next, makers must decide what to add to their bow recipe to arrive at a design. Resins are an important part of this stage, and act as a glue holding the fibers together. To make a good composite structure, makers must maximize the ratio of stiffness to weight—and in bow application, they must also understand the acoustic implications of the materials used. Some bow-making companies strive for consistency among all the bows they produce, while others focus on a less expensive product with inconsistent results. The main differences found in the quality of carbon fiber bows are in the ingredients used and the resulting consistency.
Fiber architecture is the last step of the bow making process. Fiber architecture refers to which fibers are present, their configuration, and their orientation. Many companies pour their carbon mixture into molds. (The mixture is either completely dry, partially impregnated with resins, or totally impregnated with resins.) The carbon is placed in the mold cavity and the mold is then closed. The mold is heated until the ingredients solidify or "set." These resins are "thermal set," meaning they cure when heated and can't revert to their previous state. The end product is a highly durable, although very flexible, carbon-based material.”

The following movies are also interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_gI3chGtww. Although not about carbon bows but about carbon cellos, it’s still interesting to see the manufacturing process. Mmm, I absolutely and definitely prefer this: http://www.harryjansenluthier.com/images/index.htm.

[Dr.G]

Originally Posted by funkydanbass

Are these just re-badged Articul's?

The symbols on the frogs on a site that seems to be from the Articul factory in China look similar to the ones on the Finale bows. However, it’s hard to compare from these pictures…

[John Perrin]

Damn it, I got a trojan from that link you posted. ugh.

[Dr.G]

Ajaj, thanks for the warning, I have just taken away the link. Hopefully your computer is OK ...

[Dr.G]

The first picture is an Articul bow from whitehorsemusic.com.au

Second is a bow from the Chinese “Trojan”-site that you will find if you google-search “Articul factory bow”. The company is called “Great Tech Group Ltd” and is based in Suzhou City, Jiangsu in China.

[Dr.G]

and last but not least, the Finale bow. It looks a lot like the “Great Tech Group Ltd”-bow.

[Phil Smith]

The Articul bow is a violin bow. What are we trying to compare that to? You can't even begin to do a real comparison without at the very least high resolution pictures and even then you have no idea whether or not a bow comes from the same manufacturer, plant, is re-badged, etc.

Here's a photo of the carbon fiber I got from Yita Music via ebay:

[jgbass]

I bought my Finale Carbon Fiber from World of Strings. From the information I was given, a dealer in Germany is shipping the bow to them. This may or may not mean anything, but I am under the impression this is not a Chinese bow. It does not really matter to me, I just think this bow is the best.

[Dr.G]

Yes that's a violin bow, just comparing the symbols on the frogs. But you're right, these are just low resolution pictures. And perhaps they all use the same frogs that are made in yet another place.

Maybe we should just accept that the Finale comes from the Stringemporium or World of Strings and is a very very nice bow. Pfff, enough forum for me, I'm going to practise my bowing now ... rehearsal tomorrow