French bowhold cramp.

[DSbrega]

Whenever i play French the muscle inbetween my thumb and palm always gets tired and then cramps. It's both painful and annoying. Should I strech my hand or hold it a different way or what?!!!!!PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T SAY SWITCH TO GERMAN!!!!!

[thedbassist]

First of all, do you have a teacher? Also, I use to have the same problem with that muscle tensing up(even when I had a french bow teacher) until I switched to a teacher who uses the Rabbath method. I would recommend getting a latex grip-I got mine from George at http://www.slavapub.net/Other-Rubber_Tubing.html - and probably pick up a copy of art of the bow by Francois Rabbath.
The grip helped me feel that I didn't have grip the bow, but rather hold it and my thumb didn't slip on the stick or frog so that was a big help also. The dvd helped me, along with my teacher, to develop a solid bow technique without any pain or tension in my arm or upper back.

I hope this has helped.

[JoeyNaeger]

Try and draw some mp long tones and focus on keeping your hand is relaxed as possible whenever it starts to get sore. Also, before and after you practice, you can stretch your thumb out by gently pushing it back towards your wrist. Eventually, you'll begin to learn how to hold the bow without gripping with your thumb, but it takes some time.

[jallenbass]

1. Use a sticky rosin such as Kolstein's soft, Carlsson's or Nyman's. Use a lot of it.
2. Hold the bow as if it were an egg (uncooked). Don't want to break it.
3. Let the bow sit on the string and don't attempt to weight into the string. That means playing mf or quieter. Playing near the fingerboard facilitates this.

You should notice a decrease in hand tension pretty quickly.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by jallenbass

1. Use a sticky rosin such as Kolstein's soft, Carlsson's or Nyman's. Use a lot of it.
2. Hold the bow as if it were an egg (uncooked). Don't want to break it.
3. Let the bow sit on the string and don't attempt to weight into the string. That means playing mf or quieter. Playing near the fingerboard facilitates this.

You should notice a decrease in hand tension pretty quickly.

If you're using Kolstein soft, I would not recommend using a lot of it. The same probably goes for the other two. I find that using too much rosin makes it difficult to play smoothly. For Kolstein, I recommend ony a swipe or two just to get some rosin on your bowhair.

The other tips are fine. When I started playing, I thought that to get more volume, I had to dig in more. Well, that was actually quite true, but not through the way that I was using the bow. I was having difficulty holding the French bowhold myself, so I slowly went from a loose and delicate hold that my teacher taught me to a tighter, more ham-fisted hold. I still drew a decent sound, but the sound wasn't that great and I had trouble crossing strings and doing other things.

I would recommend asking your teacher about how to correct this. A good, loose, delicate bowhold where the thumb is not squeezing the bow is very important; the bow will go where it wants to on the string naturally with minimal interference from you. One thing that will really help is to get a nicely balanced bow that can draw a pretty big sound from your bass so you don't have to do as much work. I guess to sum it up, the bow should play by itself. Hope that helps.

[DSbrega]

Thank you all. And especially thanks for not telling me to switch to german. I'll work on everything you said.

[steve_n_his_urb]

The thumb should be bent 90 deg at the first joint below the thumb nail - this greatly reduces the lever length that the thenar muscles must apply their force to. Saw it on Rabbaths CD-ROM, and it makes eminent sense biomechanically.

[CPike]

Originally Posted by DSbrega

Thank you all. And especially thanks for not telling me to switch to german. I'll work on everything you said.

Well, you could try switching to Ger-

dangit! too late...

[damonsmith]

Get a German bow, but don't switch. Have it on hand so you can keep practicing when this comes up.
Also, make sure you have a well balanced bow, for French it is even more important.

[David Potts]

Maybe take a peek at what I suggested to Sam914 in Bow Hold Woes posted 5/5/2008.

The cupped hand, curved thumb (but not 90 degrees suggested above) and bent little finger will keep everything open and flexible.

The strings and bow are springs. Relax your bow hold until your wrist,fingers and thumb are sensitive to these springs and can take up a little slack at each end of the bow. If your hand is too stiff you'll feel awkward and clumsy. If the strings or bow are too stiff they will tell you. If your springs match their springs everything melts together and you can concentrate on expression.

Happy hunting

DP

[furtom]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

I haven't seen you play but I have and have had experience with similar bow problems. My first advice is to get a good teacher.
...
Get the best teacher you can find. It's the only way in my mind.

That's the best advice so far. The problem is really good French bow teachers are few and far between. To really be able to take apart someone's technique and put it back together is an art.

I'm sure you are gripping the bow too tight -- even if you are sure you aren't! There are degrees of relaxation and it's like pealing an onion. John Schaeffer got to the center, few others do. Most of his former students would be a good starting point.

You don't say where you are located. Maybe if you do, you can get some recommendations.

[chris dammann]

alexander technique saved my bow hand. i wouldn't trade the time/money i spent on alexander for anything.
chris

[Felessan]

Originally Posted by chris dammann

alexander technique saved my bow hand. i wouldn't trade the time/money i spent on alexander for anything.
chris

I second that! Alexander technique may look like some hoaky thing when you visit a teacher's website, but it isn't. I think it's pretty amazing that humanity as a whole has spent almost ZERO time figuring out the most effective and natural way to use our bodies for any activity. Alexander technique addresses this and gives you the tools to think for yourself. Rather than someone saying "hold the bow this way," you will learn how to figure out what is most natural and effective for YOU, and implement it, and it will translate to much more than improved bass/bow technique. You'll actually be a healthier and happier human: your daily activities will be easier, your mind will be clearer, and you'll be able to get more done.

In fact, once you know a little bit about it, it makes most people look pretty stupid, and most animals and children look pretty damned smart.

-Trevor

[nathanmcnathan]

Man, I say get a german bow, it's a much more reelaxed grip.... or german gri[p on a french bow, as I used to do

[Felessan]

Originally Posted by nathanmcnathan

Man, I say get a german bow, it's a much more reelaxed grip.... or german gri[p on a french bow, as I used to do

Both grips are equally relaxed. If you don't believe that, you're doing something wrong!

-Trevor

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by Felessan

I second that! Alexander technique may look like some hoaky thing when you visit a teacher's website, but it isn't. I think it's pretty amazing that humanity as a whole has spent almost ZERO time figuring out the most effective and natural way to use our bodies for any activity. Alexander technique addresses this and gives you the tools to think for yourself. Rather than someone saying "hold the bow this way," you will learn how to figure out what is most natural and effective for YOU, and implement it, and it will translate to much more than improved bass/bow technique. You'll actually be a healthier and happier human: your daily activities will be easier, your mind will be clearer, and you'll be able to get more done.

In fact, once you know a little bit about it, it makes most people look pretty stupid, and most animals and children look pretty damned smart.

-Trevor

The last sentence is a bit more harsh than what an Alexander teacher would say. The explanation is that animals, and children who have not begun imitating adults, use themselves naturally, rather than normally, "normally" being a matter of statistical majority as opposed to how we were created to function.
The problems with giving further advice are
1. There is generally a more fundamental problem. The problem expresses itself in the bow hand, but the use of the bow hand is not the problem.
2. Following the advice offered without addressing the fundamental problem will result in bowing differently, but this is only a different kind of badly.

[Felessan]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

The last sentence is a bit more harsh than what an Alexander teacher would say. The explanation is that animals, and children who have not begun imitating adults, use themselves naturally, rather than normally, "normally" being a matter of statistical majority as opposed to how we were created to function.
The problems with giving further advice are
1. There is generally a more fundamental problem. The problem expresses itself in the bow hand, but the use of the bow hand is not the problem.
2. Following the advice offered without addressing the fundamental problem will result in bowing differently, but this is only a different kind of badly.

I bow to the wisdom of an actual certified teacher. Thank you for the clarification, Don. I _am_ a bit more harsh than an Alexander teacher, no doubt about that.

I think Don is insinuating this: a _good_ teacher can give you hands-on, personally-tailored help with this. An Alexander teacher would definitely be able to help you. A bass teacher _might_ be able to help you.

-Trevor

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Felessan

Both grips are equally relaxed. If you don't believe that, you're doing something wrong!

-Trevor

Not true. French is much more "proactive" for lack of a better term. The German has the hand nearly at rest a good part of the time.
You trade more minute control with the French for less work (especially with longer tones) with the German.
Having Said that, proper French technique should not have your hand cramping and the OP probably could find a much more relaxed grip.

[Felessan]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Not true. French is much more "proactive" for lack of a better term. The German has the hand nearly at rest a good part of the time.
You trade more minute control with the French for less work (especially with longer tones) with the German.
Having Said that, proper French technique should not have your hand cramping and the OP probably could find a much more relaxed grip.

I respectfully disagree here. I play both, and neither one is more relaxed than the other. Each has certain elements that require different muscles at different times, but since there's no way to quantify relaxation--and it's different for each person--we may have to agree that they're equally relaxed for me, but not equally relaxed for you.

Related: the Shepherd School of Music at Rice University has this handy webpage that also has some info on Alexander technique and other health and music career info. It requires realplayer or something that can play .ram files (vlc player I think also works).

http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~navmusic/tools/index.html

-Trevor

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by Felessan

Related: the Shepherd School of Music at Rice University has this handy webpage that also has some info on Alexander technique and other health and music career info. It requires realplayer or something that can play .ram files (vlc player I think also works).

http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~navmusic/tools/index.html

-Trevor

I just looked at this today. The teacher, Pedro DeAlcantara, is a mentor and friend, and a world-renowned teacher.