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11-09-2009, 09:02 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Redding CT | | | German or French?
Im just starting upright. Are there any advantages/disadvantages between bow types? I play jazz if it helps
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11-09-2009, 09:12 PM
|  | Registered User
Maker of HPF-Pre upright bass preamp | | Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Madison WI | | This might help: French or German?
I play jazz with a French bow myself, but I was originally trained on cello, so my experience is not a good guide. |
11-09-2009, 09:40 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Western Canada | | | Your teacher will answer all your questions. Some believe German to be more a natural motion. Some disagree.
It takes many hours of practice to become proficient. It takes quite a few less hours to injure yourself. Your teacher trains you to practice efficiently with correct technique so you may attain proficiency (hopefully) while minimizing the risk of injury.
Have a blast. |
11-09-2009, 10:25 PM
|  | Registered User | | Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bend, Oregon | | | It doesn't matter. Pick one. Learn how to play.
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John
When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water...
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11-09-2009, 10:29 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Wisconsin | | | Well if you play jazz why would you be playing with a bow in the first place? It's my understanding that most jazz players exclusively pizz.
My actual answer to question: It's pure personal preference. Try both styles out, and see which one you like better. However, a lot of the clinicians at the Richard Davis Bass Camp used german, and they're some of the best in the world. Just a thought.... |
11-10-2009, 12:10 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia | | | Toss a coin. Whichever side lands up, pick french bow.
If you really want to get into bowing, Id recommend a "legit" teacher, ie someone who is a regular arco player. Learn etudes and full pieces, at performance standard. Trying to learn the bow half-assed is a waste of time IMRRHOFWIW. Now where did I put that flame suit. |
11-10-2009, 12:46 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: May 2007 Location: Roseburg, Oregon, US | | | I haven't been using a bow as long as I've been playing pizz, but I really like the French bow. For me, it's easier to grab for a quick change. Many people still use German bows though as it was, for the majority of the instrument's history, the only option.
From what I hear, the general consensus is that french will allow you a little more nuance in your application and tone whereas the german bow is far easier for complicated bowing techniques commonly used in orchestras. I haven't spent significant time with a german bow so I cannot attest to this myself. |
11-10-2009, 11:38 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bend, Oregon | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Flanning  From what I hear, the general consensus is that french will allow you a little more nuance in your application and tone whereas the german bow is far easier for complicated bowing techniques commonly used in orchestras. | These are fallacies that have been perpetuated through the years.
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John
When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water...
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11-10-2009, 12:53 PM
|  | Registered User | | Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Cross Junction, VA | | | The Philadelphia Orchestra is a really, really great orchestra. They use French bows exclusively.
The Berlin Philharmonic is a really, really great orchestra. They use German bows exclusively.
Gary Karr is a really, really great soloist. He uses German bow.
Edgar Meyer is a really, really great soloist. He uses French bow.
Find a really, really good teacher. Use whichever bow he suggests.
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11-10-2009, 03:29 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia | | | What about special bow strokes though? What if you get into the more exotic arco technique, like renaud garcias "machine gun" bowing, which heavily uses the wrist, could you do that with a german bow? So far I havent found any german bow players out there using these kinds of strokes. Though link me up if theyre out there!
But id agree that theres too many urban legends around french and german bow. |
11-10-2009, 06:16 PM
| | Registered User
Maker of HPF-Pre upright bass preamp | | Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Madison WI | | Quote:
Originally Posted by jpfbass Well if you play jazz why would you be playing with a bow in the first place? It's my understanding that most jazz players exclusively pizz. | Most. 
Starting a few months ago, I have been using the bow in my jazz work. It's a blast. So far I use it for the things that easily come to mind such as melodies, soloing, and ballads. But I have no intention of being constrained by those boundaries. Band mates and the audience seem to react favorably.
The bow seems to help break out of the "same old same old" in long jazz trio sets. I can provide the pianist with a bit of relief by taking the lead role from time to time. Of course better players might have their own ways to do this, so I know it's not a universal remedy.
Oddly enough I got back into bowing because my kids started string lessons, and I felt honor bound to get my own bowing back in business. Also, I got my cello out again. So I started doing all of my practicing with the bow, until I was ready to use it on the bandstand. Now I miss it if I leave it at home, even when playing fairly traditional jazz.
I suggest to the OP that unless you have a reason to do everything right from a career standpoint (which I don't, btw) choose the bow that seems to work for you. And don't skimp on a crummy bow. My bowing, and enjoyment of bowing, improved when I got a better bow. If you choose French, consider the rubber grip. I find that it opens up my hand a bit, resulting in less fatigue.
It has occurred to me that from a slightly cynical commercial viewpoint, it's not an altogether bad idea for a bassist with a bow to convince bandleaders and the public that the bow is a vital aspect of the sound of the bass in jazz.  |
11-10-2009, 09:40 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia | | | Eddie Gomez, with mark kramer, and also the album dedication.
Gomez bows on them. Great for ballads. Plus I like eddie gomez' slight harsh edge and tone.
Strange, if I was hearing myself play with kind of tone Id be going "arrrrg" in my head. He seems to pull it off fine. |
11-11-2009, 03:40 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: May 2007 Location: Roseburg, Oregon, US | | | I used a bow to play the head on a 'The Masquerade is Over' the other night. As you said, it really does break up a set well, especially on long tunes where some contrast really keeps it from being more than a nice wash of sound. |
11-11-2009, 04:39 PM
| | | Quote:
Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan What about special bow strokes though? What if you get into the more exotic arco technique, like renaud garcias "machine gun" bowing, which heavily uses the wrist, could you do that with a german bow? So far I havent found any german bow players out there using these kinds of strokes. Though link me up if theyre out there!
But id agree that theres too many urban legends around french and german bow. | You'll need to learn to play long, slow strokes before you should even be THINKING about trying those 'special effects'.
The REAL answer There's no better bow!
Do yourself a favour and get a teacher and play whatever bow they play so you can learn the right way. |
11-11-2009, 05:25 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia | | | Yeah, thanks for those non sequitur pearls of wisdom. You know what they say about making assumptions....
My question remains unanswered. Im not interested in quantifying "better", Im interested in examining the obvious mechanical differences french and german bowing. In case youre also a poor reader, I already play french bow. |
11-11-2009, 06:12 PM
| | | I see common courtesy is foreign here.
The latter part of my post was also addressed to the topic-starter, not you.
You want to "examine the obvious mechanical differences between french and german bows"? I suggest going to a shop and trying both yourself instead of sitting at the computer pondering it! Maybe ask a teacher or a professional, eh? Quote:
Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan Yeah, thanks for those non sequitur pearls of wisdom. You know what they say about making assumptions....
My question remains unanswered. Im not interested in quantifying "better", Im interested in examining the obvious mechanical differences french and german bowing. In case youre also a poor reader, I already play french bow. | |
11-11-2009, 06:16 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Northants, UK | | | Do you stand or sit when you play? If you mostly stand, you may find that the German hold makes the bow sit into the string more naturally than does the French, simply because of the angle of the bass.
Alternatively, get a bent endpin, like Rabbath, so you can get the required angle for French while standing! |
11-11-2009, 06:30 PM
| | | You should really be able to sit AND stand and it is perfectly possible to play both bows in both positions.
For almost the entire history of the French bass bow, players (like Bottesini!) have played relaxed and without bend endpins. I would recommend learning without one and then if, after a few years of serious playing, it simply does not work, try the bend endpin. Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbass Do you stand or sit when you play? If you mostly stand, you may find that the German hold makes the bow sit into the string more naturally than does the French, simply because of the angle of the bass.
Alternatively, get a bent endpin, like Rabbath, so you can get the required angle for French while standing! | |
11-11-2009, 06:37 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemispheres85 I see common courtesy is foreign here.
The latter part of my post was also addressed to the topic-starter, not you.
You want to "examine the obvious mechanical differences between french and german bows"? I suggest going to a shop and trying both yourself instead of sitting at the computer pondering it! Maybe ask a teacher or a professional, eh? | If you quote me, then make statements, logically who am I to assume they are directed at?
I have a german bow, I rarely play it simply because I spend my time playing french, which so far suits all my needs. Therefore I am asking players with extensive use in german bow. Since you are the master at both, perhaps you could then answer my original question? |
11-11-2009, 06:59 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Ridgewood, NJ | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Bentgen The Philadelphia Orchestra is a really, really great orchestra. They use French bows exclusively.
The Berlin Philharmonic is a really, really great orchestra. They use German bows exclusively.
Gary Karr is a really, really great soloist. He uses German bow.
Edgar Meyer is a really, really great soloist. He uses French bow.
Find a really, really good teacher. Use whichever bow he suggests. | 
Great post. Really, really.
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